The Rooted Podcast

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It's almost like as if wisdom is woven into the fabric of the world, which means that I'm living in a world that was ordered that wisdom would be a part of it. That when I pursue wisdom, that's a good thing. Wisdom, the kingdom of God, His righteousness, is worth more than all of that. And through it, you will receive blessing. There's something incredibly valuable in that inherited Christian wisdom.

about how we live and how we relate to each other. And I think we move away from that at our peril. do you guys think specifically wisdom is a woman in Proverbs? It's a really interesting metaphor that sort of fleshes out. What does the life of wisdom look like and how attractive is it? The point is, this is worth absolutely everything that you have got. You're listening to the Rooted Podcast from Bible Society.

In each series, we take a closer look at a theme or book of the Bible and explore its relevance in our lives today. This is our series on Proverbs. Hey everyone, welcome back to The Rooted Podcast. I'm Noelle and I'm here with Mark and Esther for the second episode of our series on Proverbs. The Rooted Journal for Proverbs has just recently come out at the end of January and Rooted subscribers are reading all about the book of Proverbs and so we're creating this series to go alongside that.

If you would like to learn more about Rooted, if you're interested in knowing what the journal is, what this is all about, you can find out more at biblesociety.org.uk forward slash rooted. And if you love the podcast, thank you so much for listening. We love making this and so happy to have listeners. So if you have any questions for us, you can always send those in to biblesociety.org.uk forward slash rooted questions. And if you want to leave us a review or rate us, we would love that sort of thing as well. We're just going to get into this episode.

For our first episode in this series on Proverbs, we were looking at wisdom literature in the Bible. So we looked a bit at Proverbs and we looked in the New Testament at what wisdom looks like there and just sort of explored what the Bible has to say about wisdom. And this week, we want to focus again on wisdom because there's so much to say about it and it's such an interesting topic. But we want to specifically focus on wisdom personified in Proverbs.

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And we're going to look at a few passages in Proverbs that are in the first nine chapters of some different speeches that wisdom has and just some different passages about wisdom, specifically wisdom being personified. So first, just before we get into some more specific passages, we just want to have a general conversation. First to begin, how is wisdom portrayed in Proverbs? So we talked a bit about wisdom in the last episode and how we can apply it and sort of what it means in life.

But as we were looking more at wisdom in the book, we noticed that it is portrayed in a lot of different ways. So it's personified, but it also seems to be a characteristic of God. There's a lot about wisdom being with God in creation. So we just wanted to look into some of those. But yeah, how is wisdom portrayed in Proverbs? How can we think about it? It's a really interesting question though, I think. The more I've

read about this, the more it seems to me that all of these things are true. That sometimes wisdom is portrayed as a, you as you say, it's personified, it's presented as a woman. Sometimes it does seem to be more of a sort of a quality or an attribute of God. So you could say that God is wise in a sense. But I think I would go with, if you want a sort of overall view, I would go with this being a kind of literary device.

When wisdom is personified, I think it is a sort of literary device, but I think this goes back to something that you see throughout the Old Testament certainly at points. It's almost as though there's a kind of reluctance to talk about God directly and about the action of God directly. And I think this arises from this deep sense of God's holiness and His otherness, His apartness from us.

For instance, you've got the story about Moses being hidden in a cleft of the rock and God says, I will make all my glory pass by as though God's glory is a different thing from God himself. And again, it's sort of a personification of an aspect of, if you like, the essence of God. It's a way of putting some distance.

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some, if you like, some intermediary between God and human beings. And I think it is an expression maybe of respect, if you like, just a bit more than that, just an acknowledgement of the holiness of God, I think. And that's why wisdom is personified in this way, I think. And then wisdom is also seen as a characteristic of God as well, which is something a bit different, isn't it? It's almost like when we

have wisdom, we are acting in some ways like God. We are sort of tapping into a characteristic of what He's like and we're applying that to our lives. So it's sort of also a characteristic of God. Yes, absolutely. And then we also see that with wisdom being personified, in Proverbs at least, wisdom is personified as a woman, which I think is really interesting. Any ideas as to why do you guys think specifically wisdom is a woman?

in Proverbs? I don't know if this is true or not, but I suspect that it is something to do with hierarchy. And like it or not, back in the ancient world, there's a definite, I mean, not in all civilizations, but certainly in the civilization that we're concerned with here, there is a hierarchy. And I'm afraid that men are at the top and women are, in a sense, subordinate. And that's not to say that women aren't respected, they don't have different roles and so on and so forth.

But I think it is pretty patriarchal and men are in charge. And God as a reflection of the power of God, as the authority of God, is described as and envisaged as masculine. You know, he has masculine pronouns. And obviously, we'd always want to say, well, you know, God has no gender or anything like that. It's not like that. It's just how he is talked about in

in Scripture. I just think we need to be aware of that, obviously, and we need to be a little bit critical about that in how we think about these things. because wisdom is personified, I think that wisdom is personified as a woman in order to avoid any conflict between God as God and this thing which God has created.

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So, it's not as if this could be any rival to God. Wisdom is a created thing. And I think that is what lies behind the personification of wisdom as a woman. It may be also something to do with a deep expression of respect for women. I mean, you know, this figure of the wise woman is

quite embedded into the Bible as well. There are many women who are held up as examples of wisdom. And so that might have something to do with it as well. I'm just offering that as a point of discussion really. I can't claim a particular authority for it. Well, I do think considering that kind of contextual point of hierarchy, know, sort of God, man, you know,

sort of that order that we see outlined in various places in scripture. just do. I think it is really interesting to have that as a lens through which we look at this kind of illustration. Something that I was thinking about was how Proverbs itself as a book is sort of framed as this fatherly advice to a son. And there is quite a lot of talk about marriage in a way.

all the sort of intimate relationships we pursue and how we should be, you know, what's desirable in that sense. So we're told, aren't we, that wisdom has more value than anything else you could desire. Right at the end of the book, the final word of Proverbs, Proverbs 31, we've got this representation of a woman who embodies wisdom, a woman who fears the Lord. What does her life then look like?

The introduction to that bit is like an excellent wife who can find, and then it pours, this is what an excellent wife would look like. So I think maybe there's something in this idea of maybe for the original audience, if we're thinking about a father to a son and what is worth pursuing in life in the most intimate and, you know, determined way, it's like a marriage, like a good marriage. If you wed yourself to wisdom.

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then that would lead to life and flourishing. So think there could be a marriage metaphor there. And it sort of extends into the New Testament maybe where we've got Christ portraying the wisdom of God, completely embodying it. And we have that picture one day of the church being the bride of Christ. So that closest, most intimate relationship with someone who embodies wisdom, who is completely aligned with God. So that's the way I was sort of thinking of it.

I don't know if it is specifically an attempt to kind of respect or elevate women. mean, we can't deny the fact that there's also lady folly. Yeah. And there are many sort of female characters who are being used in proverbs to portray the dangers of being led astray from God's way. So I don't think it's just this pure, oh, this is the agenda. But I do think it's a really interesting metaphor that sort of fleshes out.

What does the life of wisdom look like and how attractive is it to pursue that and be completely committed to it? Yeah. I found something really interesting, actually, as I was thinking about this question that I really like. I like this interpretation that it has to do with the fact that there is also a lady folly. So there's both wisdom and folly personified as women.

Obviously, at the beginning, Solomon is introduced in Proverbs. This interpretation has to do with design patterns in the Bible, so don't know if you've heard about that, but a lot of times in the Bible, certain characters that you read about are a lot like characters that you've seen before. So, Jesus being compared to Moses and that sort of a thing. And there's this idea that Solomon could be like an Adam figure in the Bible. So, he's this new man who's come in and he's going to work with the wisdom of God and he's going to bring blessing.

But he fails, and interestingly, the way he fails is that he's influenced by his wives. That caused him to fail just as Adam was influenced by his wife and caused to fail. So it's sort of an image of corrupted wisdom. But anyway, the idea is that that idea, that sort of pattern is brought into Proverbs in the sense that you have lady wisdom, but then you also have

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another wise character in the book of Proverbs, which is the father who's speaking to his son. So there's sort of this wise father and this wise woman. And then you also have Lady Folly, who's a foolish woman. And you have an evil sort of foolish man who speaks in Proverbs as well, which is in Proverbs 1. In Lady Folly, there's a passage in Proverbs 9. And the idea is in this interpretation that these are two couples of

sort of Adam and Eve type characters. So you either have the redeemed Adam and Eve who are wise and follow the Lord, or you have the corrupted Adam and Eve who are foolish and don't. It's pulling from Genesis 1, where Genesis 1 says that God made in His wisdom, He made people male and female. So the idea that wisdom would be personified in a male form and a female form. So the idea is that you can either follow the voice that is in the image of God's wisdom,

which is sort of the redeemed Adam and Eve, or you can go against it and you can follow the sort of corrupted Adam and Eve, which I found really interesting, just that someone has taken that and pulled it from the creation story. And I really, really liked that. It sounds a bit complex. I don't know if I explained it perfectly well, but I thought that was interesting. I love how you explained that. I have never thought of it like that. And I think that's so illuminating. I definitely think that is valid. I think it's fair.

And it's interesting to see how much sort Genesis imagery does even quite subtly come into passages in Proverbs. So I definitely think there's a conversation going on there. I'm really excited by what you've just said. I love that. I'm going to go away and think about that some more. that was really good. And we'll see in a lot of the passages we're about to read actually how much they link with the creation story. The first one is in Proverbs chapter one. This is sort of Lady Wisdom's first speech that she gives.

So it starts in verse 20. And Esther, you can read that for us. yes, I will. So I'm reading this from the ESV.

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How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing and fools hate knowledge? If you turn at my reproof, behold, I will pour out my spirit to you. I will make my words known to you." And then in that same speech, she goes on to kind of, I think, express some, she's a bit aggrieved. She's very frustrated with these people that are ignoring her call. guess the main thing.

that I'm thinking is this is obviously a warning. And this goes on until verse 33, so this is quite a long speech, but she's warning us of something. So guess what is the warning? What is she trying to get across? I think she's just trying to say, look, I'm doing everything I can to reach you with this wise advice. I'm literally in the streets, I'm at the city gates, I'm everywhere. And yet I'm looking and I'm seeing that you're not listening to me. And I think

If you read on from there, she does sound quite aggrieved. She says some things that I think shock you because she actually talks about, well, seeing as you've rejected me and despised me, I'm going to laugh at you when calamity comes. And we kind of go, ooh, that doesn't sound, you know, that sounds, is it vindictive? But she's just kind of saying, look, I've done everything I can. Now it's your turn.

Why don't you want this good thing? Why do you hate knowledge? Why do you hate what's good? And I think that her warning is really about our personal responsibility. You know, if you do reject me, you will eat the fruit of your choices and they won't be good. Yeah, I agree with that. And I think there is this

element of choice in there, isn't there? So, you know, it goes on a little bit later. You didn't read this, since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the Lord, so there's this element of choice. You know, you can choose to be wise or you can choose to be foolish. I think the other thing that came out to me from this is this idea that Proverse is aimed at not just individuals, but influential individuals.

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you know, if it's a written text, then you can assume it's aimed at people who knew how to read it. And one of the ideas about Proverbs is that it was written as a sort of instruction manual for young noble men and women who would be expected to take part in the government of the country. So they are the influencers, they are the opinion formers.

They're the ones who are going to form the civil service and all of that sort of thing to put the king's policies into action. And so it's not just about how we are in our personal relationship with God. I think that's a sort of later Christian reading of it really. But it's also about how you govern a state. It's about how you create a culture, if you like, a kind of politics.

which is healthy and a culture which works, a civilization that works. Yeah. And I suppose if your rulers are ruling wisely, if the people that are making decisions on that level are wise, there's a trickle down effect, isn't there? That has an influence and an impact on people at large.

doubly useful. not just personal, but for the flourishing of the community. Yeah, that's good. One of the things that struck me, I I've read Tom Holland's book, Dominion, which is about how the things that we take for granted about how we live today, you know, the things that we believe about human rights and the rights of women, value of women, and all of that kind of thing, they have profoundly Christian roots.

and that they arise from a couple of thousand years of Christian tradition and Christian history. And it just makes me kind of worry about whether we're forgetting this, whether we are moving away as a culture, as a civilization from these Christian roots. And I don't like catastrophizing or saying, the world is awful and it was all better 50 years ago and that sort of thing.

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because in many ways it wasn't, let's face it. But I think there's something incredibly valuable in that inherited Christian wisdom about how we live and how we relate to each other, the sort of laws that we pass. And I think we move away from that at our peril. Yeah. I think too, something that's a bit haunting, a verse I find a bit haunting, is verse 31.

So they shall eat the fruit of their own way and be satiated with their own devices." I find myself really interested in consequence. And this is actually saying, because I think a lot of the time when something bad happens to you, often I think the human way can be to say, like, why did that happen? Like, was it because I did something wrong? Was it the enemy out to get me? Was it God testing me? Was it whatever? And I think this verse is really interesting because it's basically saying,

This is the consequence of your own actions. I basically caused this to happen. I think that's what's interesting with what you were saying, Mark, of like, if we're stepping away from these values and we see catastrophe in the world and we see these things happening, a lot of the time, I think we're just eating the fruit of what we have basically reaping what we've sown in the world, which is a bit, yeah, haunting as I read it. But I think that is what this verse is saying really. Well, and I think that really pulls out so that

mercy or the call that's there, this availability of wisdom, even if you've been foolish. So 23, if you turn my reproof, then I'll pour out my spirit to you. I will make my words known to you. So you can go from being simple and foolish to becoming wise. And right at the end, that verse 33, restating that whoever listens to me will dwell secure and will be at ease without dread of disaster.

So if you're sort of in that place of like, the world is terrible, we're doomed, but actually no, we can turn to wisdom and then there can be a more positive outlook on life, but we need to want wisdom. I think what you say about consequences is really true now. I think that particular verse that you quoted, which in the New International Version, it says, they will be filled with the fruit of their schemes.

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So, you if you turn your back on wisdom and you go your own way, then absolutely there are consequences. And I've just been reading The Divine Conspiracy by Dallas Willard, which I'm enjoying actually. That's a great book. And in part of it, he talks about, I can't remember exactly how he puts it, but it talks about the focus on rights. You know, we're all sort of anxious about our rights and what's due to us and that sort of thing. But really, it's also about responsibilities.

if we focus on our responsibilities, we just have a different perspective on the world, really. If we act in a responsible way, then we act wisely and the consequences are better for us than if we do not. Yeah, that's good. So, let's move on to the next passage, which is in chapter three, verses 13 to 18, and I'll go ahead and read those. How blessed is the man who finds wisdom?

and the man who gains understanding. For her profit is better than the profit of silver, and her gain better than fine gold. She is more precious than jewels, and nothing you desire compares with her. Long life is in her right hand, in her left hand are riches and honor. Her ways are pleasant ways, and all her paths are peace. She is a tree of life to those who take hold of her, and happy are all who hold her fast.

This is just a passage telling us more about wisdom, again, personified as a woman. And I thought it was really interesting after I had read what I said earlier that here she's called a tree of life, which I feel is another sort of linked Genesis. So the thing, one thing I find really interesting here is that this passage is sort of talking about how nothing that we desire can compare with wisdom. She's the most desirable thing. I think that can be a bit convicting for us, but it's also very compelling.

So what does this mean for us as we read this, that nothing we desire compares with wisdom? Well, it's really interesting because my mind leapt to some of the parables of Jesus where he talks about the kingdom of heaven. And I thought about Matthew 13 where he has this parable about the pearl of great price and the merchant sells everything and buys it, which from a business point of view is a terrible decision.

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That's what the merchant does or the treasure hidden in the field, which makes more commercial sense if you like. the point is this is worth absolutely everything that you have got. I just thought, yeah, there's a comparison there. maybe, and this is a Dallas Willard thing as well, I suppose really, but maybe

There is something about us having the same desire for the Kingdom of Heaven as is expressed in Proverbs for wisdom and as though the sort of the culmination, if you like, of what the Bible says about wisdom in the Old Testament is in some way expressed in what Jesus says about the Kingdom of Heaven because it's a different kind of wisdom. It's a sort of counter-cultural wisdom.

it's God doing something completely different in the world. And you might have thought that you knew how to live and you knew how to behave and everything was sort of plain and clear in your mind. Along comes the Kingdom of Heaven and all of that is upended. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I just wanted to pick up on what you said, Noel, about how it was maybe slightly convicting reading this passage. And I was thinking about that too, because it's sort of explicitly by mentioning silver, gold, jewels.

You know, these symbols basically of material wealth that many of us, or, know, lots of us might be interested in acquiring them and then we treasure them. But it's saying wisdom is better than those things. But I also think there is a sense in this passage that it's not just an either or, because it says if you perceive wisdom, then you will get honor and, you know, all her ways of pleasantness and peace. That sounds like the good life to me.

It talks about, it says, long life is in her right hand, in her left hand, a riches and honor. So it's not just a choice between, I should deny myself the good life so that I can appear to be wise. And it makes me think, you know, linking to what you were saying, Mark, about where Jesus says, you know, seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these other things will be added unto you. But I think that's in the passage, isn't it, about don't worry about where your clothes will come from or what you're going to eat.

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So maybe, you know, either end of the extremes are basic needs or these things that we think we'd love to have and we will go to quite great lengths to chase after sometimes. Wisdom, the kingdom of God, His righteousness is worth more than all of that. And through it, you will receive blessing. I think Proverbs so many times talks about wisdom and how wisdom blesses us. Yeah. I think it's interesting though, too.

think about wisdom blessing us. Oftentimes when I choose to do the wise thing or I choose wisdom, that doesn't actually work out for me very well. Like so Proverbs is like, oh, all of her ways are pleasant and this is going to be so good and if you do this thing, this great thing is going to happen to you. But when I think about the kingdom of heaven, I think that a lot of the time, like in the Sermon on the Mount, the narrow path, like that choosing wisdom is actually

oftentimes the harder thing to do and it's the thing I don't really always want to do. And then it's not as if, at least in my experience, that choosing wisdom means that I actually get a pleasant result. So I think there's part of me that would read this and be like, yeah, but not always. Do you think it's bringing in the idea of the short term versus long term? Because if we think in a sort of Christian worldview, there's the present, there's now.

there's also eternity. So, you know, if getting something that seems great to you now in this moment, but isn't aligned with God's wisdom, doesn't please and honor Him, you know, yes, you will enjoy it in that moment. Maybe you might get something out of it, but in eternity, which is far longer, it could actually be,

not a good thing at all. think so often as well, when we maybe do deny ourselves to act wisely and then when we sort of think, well, if I'd chosen that, maybe I would be in a better position now. But we can never really know that for sure because we didn't take that path. And I think it's part of the, know, Proverbs 3, 5 to 6, trusting in the Lord thing to say, however it looks right now, trusting in God and His wisdom and sort of being obedient to that.

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will pay off in the end. agree with you both really, I think what you were saying, Noel, about things, if you do the right thing, if you do the wise thing, it doesn't always work out for you personally. And I think there is a kind of tension in Proverbs about that. in my NIV study Bible, I was just looking at it earlier and it says, because of the nature of Proverbs, we must not interpret it as prophecy.

or its statements about certain effects and results as promises. It goes on to say, oh, Proverbs 10, 27, the years of the wicked are cut short while the righteous live long and prosperous lives. And that's not always true, is it? But as a sort of general principle or as something to aspire to, it is true. I think this is one of those places where you think

not whether the Bible is true, but how it's true, really. we have to do the right thing anyway, you know, that's the... exactly. And if it doesn't work out for us, then too bad, because we have done the right thing and that's what we're called to. Yes. I suppose that's how we would know that we're not just doing what's right in a self-serving way. Yeah. You know, kind of like, you know, it's the premise of Job, isn't it? Right at the beginning, the Satan comes to...

God, sorry, and says, Job is only obedient to you because you've blessed him so much, because it basically serves him so well. If you took these things away, if you did this, he would curse you. And I guess maybe when wisdom doesn't seem to work out for us, it's sort of like a litmus test. like, well, why am I doing it? Is it just because of the good reward that I hope to receive or is it because I'm honoring God? And it's good.

So, let's look at our last passage, which is in Proverbs 8, verses 22. So, we're going to read to verse 26, but this passage does go all the way to verse 31. Mark, would you like to read this for us? Sure. This is the New International Version. So, speaking about wisdom, it says,

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When there were no oceans, I was given birth. When there were no springs abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth. Before He made the earth or its fields, or any of the dust of the world." And that passage goes on to talk more about, it just continues in this sort of idea that wisdom was there when the world was created. So there are some links here.

obviously to the creation story and the beginning of the world, but also to John, chapter 1, which also links to the creation story. But I wonder if we could pull some things out of those links and what is proverb saying here about wisdom's part in creation?

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It's almost as though he is talking about the Holy Spirit, isn't it? And, you know, he's not, because that is not a doctrine or an understanding that was really developed at this time, I think. It's not the same, but he's saying the same sort of thing. I don't know what you think about that. Yeah, it sounds like it. Like, see what mean, yeah.

Yeah, it does, but it also sounds a bit like, you know, how the New Testament writers, you know, like, for example, Paul in Colossians or the writer of Hebrews, how they identify, like, Jesus pre-existing his incarnation. You know, everything was created through him. Nothing was created that wasn't created with his agency somehow. So yeah, it definitely seems to be some kind of like Godhead.

identification, doesn't it? So it's like an attribute of God, although the way that this passage is written, it does make it sound as though it's created. I don't know. It's an interesting dynamic that we're trying to capture here. Yeah, so if wisdom came into the world with Jesus, but it was there at the very beginning as well, there's this idea, I guess when I read it, that wisdom is sort of this principle

like that was there when the world was ordered or created. So the world in the way that God created it is sort of geared towards wisdom or morality. Like it's almost like as if wisdom is woven into the fabric of the world and the way that it was created. Does that make sense? Like, so it's like almost as if wisdom is in like the DNA of the world and its creation, which means that I'm living in a world that was ordered in sort of architecture.

did in a way that wisdom would be a part of it. And it just makes sense to me that then I would pursue it and that it makes sense to me that because God, this was sort of divine order, that when I pursue wisdom, that's a good thing because it was a part of the creation of the world. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, it does. In the ESV study Bible, it was sort of exploring that idea and it was talking about how wisdom as well seems to be like the voice or the

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agent of rationality. So if you even just think about the creation of the world in a bit more of a mechanical way, like how does it all work? It's the rationale behind it all is how it all fits together and works in harmony. And that's something I really love about this passage right near the end of it in verses 30 to 31. Like when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside him like a master workman and I was his

I was daily His delight, rejoicing before Him always, rejoicing in His inhabited world and delighting in the children of man. So you've got like that picture going back to creation of God creating something good and delighting in it, being present with it, enjoying it, which is such a beautiful picture, isn't it? It is, and it's so different from the pictures that would have been around at the time where the world was just chaotic, it was violent, it was dangerous, it was created.

by violent, dangerous and predictable gods. And then you've got this picture of wisdom at the heart of things. And the world is ordered, it's rational. God intended it to be the way it is, and He intended us to have this particular part in it. And I think that's an amazing thought. Yeah, that's really good. And we'll end there today. But thank you both for such a good conversation about wisdom. We're going to be back next week.

And we have a guest, Liam Thatcher is joining us and we love Liam and he wrote for the Proverbs edition of Rooted. So we've asked him to come on and have another conversation with us about wealth. Proverbs has a lot to say about how we should handle money and wealth. Until then, if you love the podcast, leave us a review of ratings, send us in any questions. We'd love to hear them. And thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next week. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Rooted podcast.

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