The Rooted Podcast

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You're listening to the Rooted Podcast from Bible Society, a Christian organization that invites people to discover the life -giving power of the Bible. In each series, we dig deeper into a theme or book of the Bible and explore its message for us today. This is series two, Philippians. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Rooted Podcast. I'm here again with Mark and Esther, and I'm Noelle. We're going to have another conversation about the book of Philippians before we move on to our next series on Daniel.

Today we're going to talk a bit about joy. This is the epistle of joy. So we're going to talk about what is joy? Is there a difference between joy and happiness? How can I be a Christian who has Christ but not feel joy? And then we're also going to look into different ways that we think that a Christian seeks joy versus maybe how someone who doesn't have the Lord would seek joy. I think a good place to start would just be to kind of discuss what do we think joy is? So what is joy? You know, is it an emotion?

a feeling? Is it something deeper than that, more than that? Another question that we could ask in this, is there a difference between happiness and joy? What do you guys think that joy is? Well, I suppose if you look at the dictionary, it will say that joy is a kind of happiness or happiness is a kind of joy, sort of cross references between the two. they, you know, they seem to be pretty much the same. I kind of think that joy is a different sort

emotion really. I mean, they're related, but to me, there are more levels to joy, actually, than with happiness. You know, all sorts of things can make you happy, but joy seems to have a different texture about it. It just seems to have a different quality about it. I was looking at the beginning of Philippians where Paul says, in all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day till now.

if you were to replace the word joy with happiness, so I always pray with happiness because of your partnership with the gospel, it doesn't feel the same, it doesn't sound the same. And to me, happiness is a lighter thing, and there's something about joy which is different. Yeah, I agree. I think I've always thought about joy as being sort of an undercurrent in the Christian life.

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a range of emotions that can go from very happy to very sad. because I'm in Christ and He's in me, there's this sort of undercurrent of joy. And again, I don't really know how to put it into words, but it seems as something that is not just an emotion or a feeling, but rather something that goes deeper than that. And it's something that's available to me always in Christ. think, you know, we've talked quite a bit about the Stoics actually over the course of this

series and they would describe, from what I've read, I'm not an expert, but they would describe joy as being like a state of mind. And I think that that does kind of get at something about what you've been saying in terms of like happiness maybe feels a bit more surface level and fleeting, it's momentary, but joy is sort of a position or a state of mind that you

adopt and there are sort of deeper reasons for it, more than just like, in this moment I feel a certain way, there seems to be a reasoned element to joy. I think that's certainly borne out in the kind of joy that Paul describes himself as having and that he encourages the Philippian believers and us to have in Christ and in whatever their circumstances

Yeah, because there are times when you won't always feel happy. There are times when you'll feel really, really sad. I think everybody goes through times like that, don't they? When things just are going terribly, terribly wrong for you and you're not going to feel happy. But there can still be this undercurrent of joy in a sense, which you can maybe think of as that sense of things being ultimately okay.

because you are held, because God is there, because whatever happens, you're never going to be abandoned. so joy is a word that can work pretty hard, actually, I think. I mean, sometimes it is more about happiness, and sometimes it's more that sense that God is there for you. And so it can be quite high -pitched and quite sort of low -key, you know, it's there in the background, but it is there even so.

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mean, do you think that's actually in the sense that, for example, happiness, you know, we normally think we can tell when someone's happy because they're showing it in some way. They're smiling, laughing, they're full of enthusiasm and energy, and we sort of read those as signs of happiness. You know, that reminds me of, you know, like that instruction that Paul gives to rejoice. So rather than that being a noun, that's a verb. It's something you're to do.

I think, so maybe there's actually, you know, that outward show, don't just feel something, but show it to others, show your joy through rejoicing, through visible happiness. I think that's an interesting distinction to make. You know, why is it good to actually show your joy to others to display it? Yeah, it is interesting because it's actually a command from Paul, right? It's not just a suggestion, but you should rejoice always.

I heard a quote once, this is not from the Bible, it's just a quote, but I thought it was interesting. it was, peace is quiet joy, and joy is peace out loud. So the idea that when I am joyful, it's just an expression of how I, I don't know, my state as a Christian, that I'm feeling peace, but then maybe joy could look like, in a quiet sense, just me being peaceful.

So I guess what I'm saying is when you're talking about expressing joy, that it doesn't always mean that personality wise, like that I'm the brightest, happiest bouncing through the office, although that would be great. But that actually it can mean I can still have joy, but be still and quiet. It talking about different expressions of joy, guess I think that it can look a lot of different ways. Yeah. I think that's really interesting what you've both been saying actually. And I love the idea

joy as a verb, not just as a noun. I was just thinking about when I was preparing for this podcast. I mean, I have a friend, for instance, who will sometimes talk about things or people who take away her joy. It's quite a sort of resonant phrase, I think, for me. There are people who do that, they? They sort of suck their life out of you because they are toxic or because they're miserable or because, you know, nothing is ever quite right for them.

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And sometimes you think, well, you know, this is, it's not really their fault. I mean, life is hard for them and so on, and they want to talk about it. But sometimes, you know, as a pastor, I saw this in church, actually. And even when I stopped being a pastor, I can still see it sometimes in churches. There are some people who, for whom nothing is ever quite right, and they don't seem to have that joy. And I think that thinking of joy is a verb, thinking of it as a command.

is a really good way of challenging that sort of person, gently of course, gently and joyfully. But it's a way of just saying to somebody, you know, you're not expressing joy, you you're not coming across as joyful. Well, you know, why is that? And I think one of the things about churches is that you, you you accept people as they are, you love people as they are, but you don't have to leave them as they

And challenging them about joy, people like that, I think can be really important stage on the discipleship path. Yeah. I think that's so true, especially, you know, that question either to ask someone or to reflect on in yourself of like, why are you joyful or not joyful? And or what is the source of your joy? How are you pursuing joy? Because I mean, that's what Paul does throughout this letter, actually.

Yeah, there's no, poor me, I'm in prison. Or for you, you're experiencing these things. At every point, he's kind of going through and saying, well, I'm actually full of joy and here are my reasons for that. Rejoice with me. There's a communal sense to it. But yeah, he very much, doesn't just say, rejoice and then leave them to be put on a fake smile. He tells them, these are all your reasons. So think if we're not joyful,

It may be as, you know, we've got to acknowledge the things that aren't good and address them. But also it could be that our priorities and our perspective and the places that we're seeking joy are not really that great. You they're not really aligned with what Paul says in Philippians. I think you're right. I think it does make a difference for refining joy. But I think it's good what you said, Mark, about it's sort of what Paul says

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Living to a manner worthy of what you were called to. I think that's what Paul is talking about, sort of what you're saying, Mark, of holding people to a high standard because this is what we've been called to. We've been called to a life of joy in Christ. And it's actually our responsibility, isn't it, as the church and as family members in Christ to say, hey, I get that you're feeling this way, but actually there's a better way of life for you available in Christ. Yes, I think that's true.

At the same time, we're called to weep with those who weep, aren't we? And we would never want to be people who deny that sort of shadow side of life, that really hard side of life. I knew somebody years ago. He was disabled and he didn't really have a very good quality of life at all. But he had a couple of friends who were Christians. He wasn't a believer, but he had a couple of Christian friends who took him to a church service and it

You know, one of these lively services where there was a lot of singing and dancing and clapping and raised hands and they were standing on one on each side of him. And at one point they each took an arm and raised it above his head to sort of get him into the mood. Really. He talked about this and he was he was really unhappy about it, really uncomfortable about it. And I think nowadays we'd see that as spiritual abuse, actually.

In a sense, mean, that's what we can do sometimes with people, isn't it? We don't like to think that they're not feeling as we're feeling, as joyful as we're joyful. And so we try and impose that on them in whatever way we shouldn't do it. Weeping with those who weep is a big part, I think, of shared discipleship. Yeah, that's good. Also, I just think that authenticity from Christians, like, you know, actually us,

raising our hands in church and wanting to clap and dance and all that. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. But we need to be vocal about why we're joyful. You know, rather than just sort of be like, the music starts and I dance, you know, as just this sort of automatic response because everyone around me is doing it and, you know, this is what you're supposed to do, whatever. Why are you doing it? Because there are reasons.

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know, why that could be a good way to praise God. And there are reasons to display your joy and worship more quietly sometimes. And there's not one way of expressing it. See, I do think authenticity, but also not trying to make somebody else display feelings they might not be having for a start, but also do it in the way you're doing it. So I think we've sort of touched on this,

Maybe just to ask the question outright, because I think a lot of Christians have this question, which is, how is it that I can have Christ, be in Christ, Christ is in me, but I don't feel any joy? Especially a lot of the times in the place that our world is in right now, maybe the crisis in mental health that's become very apparent recently, maybe, let's say, while we were in lockdown, there are lots of different situations in

Maybe we know that we're supposed to be joyful in all circumstances, but we definitely don't feel it at all. So why do you guys think that is or how can that be? guess if someone said that to me, I'd want to ask them more questions. You know, I'd want to say, because obviously the way you phrased the question was how can it be that I don't feel any joy? And that's different to saying how can I not be joyful then in this moment? You know, sometimes

We are going through something absolutely horrendous and searching for reasons to be joyful, or we could put it another way, to have hope. There's a journey to that, but you have to help someone find it. You have to walk with them together. You might have to be someone who brings them the joy they're not feeling, or gives them reasons to rejoice if they come to you and say, look, I can't do it and I'm

I don't know how to get out of this hole. And I think that, yeah, there's something about loving a person well who says this and really trying to get to the bottom of it, listening, walking alongside them. I think I go back to what I was trying to say a bit earlier actually about joy being a word which can do a lot of heavy lifting, really, sort of theologically speaking. And I think you have to see

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in the context of other emotions and other approaches to what's going on in your life or in the world as well, because people are complicated, you know, and life is complicated. So when I see, for instance, what's happening in Sudan, what's happening in Israel and Gaza, I don't read those news stories. I don't watch those news reports with a sense of joy.

I watch those news reports with a sense of horror. Actually, I think we need to recover that sense of lament, which you see in some of the Psalms in Lamentations as well. Just an acknowledgement before God that sometimes things are really, really dreadful. But one of the things that occurs to me is to ask how the people in that situation feel, how the believers in those situations actually feel.

Now, some of them are unquestionably just beaten down by what they're going through. You know, if you can't feed your children, if you're scared of bombs falling out of the sky every minute, I doubt if you have much room in your heart for much else actually than fear and grief. But still, I come back to this thing that we are not abandoned and that we're not completely left to our own devices.

and that underneath it all there is God. I remember during the Ethiopian famine back in the 80s, there was a newsreader and he said that he could not possibly believe in a God who could let that happen. But the interesting thing to me is that people who were there, you know, the Ethiopian people there, many of them Christians, retained their

tried to find God in this, it was still that sense that they had that God was there even in spite of what they were going through. So again, I think you have to listen to the people who are actually there if you're looking at it from the outside. I think it is amazing how people in all kinds of terrible situations, when they talk about it afterwards, can say that, you know, I actually felt joy in that moment or I found God in that moment. Yeah. And I

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Obviously we've talked about it in the series, but you know, Paul's saying, look, yes, I'm in jail, but do you know what? This is actually a serve to advance the gospel. Everybody's talking about why I'm locked up. They know I'm here for the defense of the gospel. And so even though that's a bad situation, like he finds cause for joy, for hope in that because yeah, the gospel's being talked about.

It's like when you see it so obviously a weed, we think of this being a negative thing, but you know, you see sometimes like a weed will break through concrete and you think, how can this little plant break through this completely solid, potentially very thick layer and flourish? And yet it can happen. And I think that joy sometimes, not to be flippant, but it can be as irrepressible as a weed like that that comes

and puts out these beautiful flowers and you can almost hardly believe that it is a weed. Yeah, that's good. I think too, something you've both touched on, that for people in difficult situations, but I even think for someone like me or for us who are not in a place of war basically, or in a place of daily dread, that often joy has to be a choice. So I think if someone were to come to me and say, you know, I have Christ, but I don't feel joy. I actually don't think that

just an automatic feeling that I'm going to have because I have Christ. actually think that it is actually it's part of my responsibility as a Christian to choose it daily because I actually have a choice as to whether I'm going to wake up and I'm going to think, you know, we can all think my job is this or my life is unfair or my life is this or whatever. as a Christian, I think it's sort of my obligation to redirect my thoughts.

to think, actually, towards gratitude, towards love, towards joy, to think and to choose in that moment. No, actually, my life is a gift. My job is a gift. These people are a gift. And I think that in that way, I am choosing joy. It doesn't necessarily mean that I'm feeling tons of joy, but I'm actually going to choose to have a mindset and a lifestyle in which I embrace those sorts of attitudes and thoughts instead of the ones that come very easily.

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Well, and I think, you know, there's so much in the Bible, isn't there, about the transformation that kind of like the Holy Spirit at work in our lives brings. Yeah. You know, that it can change, it can literally change our affections. You know, the things that we used to desire and enjoy and want, we no longer want them. Yeah. And instead, we have like a totally different orientation in our lives. Like, I've heard many people say, I came to faith and it

know, maybe not instantaneous, but very dramatic how their mind changed. And the Bible, guess, well, Paul would describe that as, you know, be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And I do think some of what you've described is like involved in that. Yeah, it's sort of like this double thing where you're saying it's like this passive relationship I have with joy where the Holy Spirit is changing me and my mind and my heart. And then there's this active

relationship that I have with joy, where I'm choosing it, even when I don't want to. And I think too, after, if I do that for a month and then I stop, like I'm not going to become a joyful person. But after years of choosing that, like after a whole lifetime of deciding I'm going to embrace, you know, the joy of Christ, that's when I think we become joyful people. And they're the sorts of people, I don't know if you guys have met them, where you get around them and they're just so...

Honestly, just so joyful. And you leave, and you leave their presence, you honestly feel lighter, or you feel happier, you feel more hopeful just from being around that person. That's like my goal. I want to be one of those just happy people where it's sort of contagious. And I kind of imagine that that's how Jesus must have been. That when you left him, you just couldn't help but feel more hopeful and more joyful because you'd been around

I think that's what's available after a lifetime of doing that. it's not as if I'm just going to feel it all the time, I

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Our sort of last question, sort of wrap up question is, so we're talking about choosing joy and we're talking about how joy is sort of this undercurrent to the Christian life. I wonder, what do you guys think are the differences between how a Christian might find joy? So we have Christ and we know joy is available to us, but how do we actually find it in our day -to -day lives? Or where do we find joy versus maybe how the world might find joy? Because you can find joy in the wrong things, can't

Yeah, I mean, joy is sort of, you know, it's a describing word, but it's not, you know, people can sadly rejoice in things that we would say are evil. So yeah, I do think what we're finding joy in, what we're pursuing is really important. We have talked quite a lot and obviously looking at the letter to the Philippians, we've looked at what are the sort of sources for joy? How do you seek that as a Christian?

I do think it is interesting to look at, where do people find it in the world? Because there are lots of people who are not Christians, who I would say are very positive, joyful people. They feel that their life has a sense of meaning. They feel that they're making the world a better place. They have a real concern for others and that they're fulfilled in many ways.

I think the thing is we are all searching for joy. It's sort of universal, isn't it? And I think that search, like many Christians would say, well, it points to God. That sometimes is a way of pointing to God. If they can't find joy in other things, here's where your ultimate joy can be found. But yeah, it's a universal search.

what you just said reminds me of C .S. Lewis, actually, because he wrote a sort of spiritual autobiography called Surprised by Joy. And he wrote some really interesting things about joy. And he talks about joy and happiness and pleasure. And he says that for him, joy is something completely different. He sees it as a sort of unsatisfied longing for something which is not of this world.

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So you might take pleasure in art or musical literature. He saw the joy that he found in things like that or in his experience of the natural world or in his experience of people, whatever it might be. He saw that as pointing beyond itself to something else which was not to be found in this world. And maybe that's part of the answer to your question about the difference between

where a Christian approaches joy and the way a non -Christian might approach joy. Because I suspect that for somebody with no kind of real spiritual consciousness, somebody who is not a believer in particular, the joy that they feel, I mean, it's great, but it stops at that experience, whatever that experience might be. And for Christians, we perhaps see that as something which does

point beyond itself. It's a foretaste, it's a foreshadowing of the ultimate joy which we will one day experience. I was doing bit of research into what do humanists say about meaning, purpose, like joy in life and some of the descriptions like somebody talking about their joy and appreciation in nature. Well,

can feel that as a Christian. I can go out there and look at that, but then there's another layer and element to my joy because it turns me to the one who I believe created it. And when you just see something that's so outrageously beautiful, like a flower that has just colors that you're just like, who came up with that? It's so vivid, it's so extremely beautiful.

that then just makes me think, well, this is like lavish love and such an incredible gift of God that he created this for me to appreciate, you know, and he hasn't just made, it's a nice flower. It's an outstandingly beautiful flower. And then you look at all the variety that there is and you just, it boggles the mind really to, yeah, feel the joy that there is

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a source that's just so outlandish in creating things for us to appreciate. So that's something that then if you're just saying, well, yes, this flower is beautiful and that's where it ends. Yeah, that there's, I don't know, it doesn't sort of go on and on in the same way that I feel like it does for me believing in a creator. I'm sure you could do

down many different avenues. Yeah. For me, when I think about finding joy in life, I think that there are a lot of things that I think people in the world find joy through that I actually think are like the opposite of joy. The first thing that came to my mind was shopping malls, but it's just one of the worst places I think to

But do think thinking about places that people find joy in the world and Christians find joy, I'm sure, but is in materialism or consumerism, for example, and that perhaps that's not a place that we should be searching for joy. So I think there are things like that, maybe in commiseration, complaining, maybe in gossip, maybe in something like social media, you're trying to find some sort of pleasure in that.

I think about those sorts of things when I think about things that can seem as if they're going to bring joy or things that actually maybe do bring a burst of sort of happiness, we might say, or pleasure. But I actually don't think those can create a resounding joy or joy that lasts or anything that is really deep or sustainable or real when it comes to joy.

But I actually think they're very easy to get caught up in, even for Christians. I think it's easy for us to think that we'll find joy in those things. When actually the things that will find joy in are the things that we do that make our lives revolve around Christ. And we know these sorts of things, but ordering our lives around the things of Christ, things like rest, community, prayer, worship, scripture. When I order my life around those things,

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I find joy, right? But those are actually really practical things that I do to bring joy into my life. Whereas if I focus on doing the other things, it actually leads to the opposite, I think. The whole materialism thing, I feel like all through my childhood and schooling, and especially now with such a narrative we have about not being wasteful and caring for the

I think there's been quite a heavy sort of backlash against consumerism and the fact that it's empty, even whilst we've continued to be very materialistic. And I think Christians can be just as materialistic as anyone else, sadly. I think the big thing for most people is about connection with others. It's about seeking joy and belonging and meaning and purpose in relationships.

me like that seems much more where people are looking actually than material things now. It's in relationships and relationships are difficult and messy

Sometimes we put a huge amount of responsibility on other people to make us happy that they can't meet. And again, it's like that thing of like, they are a shadow or a sign of something that we want, that we're designed to want. Man is not designed to be alone, that kind of idea. We're meant to relate, to be in relationship with God and that's where we find our fulfillment and then with him, with others and with the world.

I actually think relationship is more key than materialism. All of this makes me think about Philippians again, actually. And I'm just looking at chapter four, verses eight onwards, where he says, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. That's maybe a good summary of what we've just been talking about.

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So it's sort of like what we're saying is some people we notice are finding joy in possessions and what they can get. Some people are seeking joy in relationships and just in relationships, you know, that maybe sometimes aren't the best relationships. But as Christians, we're seeking joy in Christ and we're seeking joy in His Word and we're choosing to think on things that are lovely and pure and good.

That's going to bring us to the end of our discussion today on joy. This is the end of the Philippians series. We're going to be back very soon with the Daniel series. So the Rooted Journal on Daniel is coming out at the end of July. If you don't know what Rooted is, it's Bible Society's devotional journal. So we put together a new journal on a different book or theme of the Bible every other month. If you're interested, you can find out more about that on Bible Society's website.

So you'll find Mark Ester and I here again at the end of July for another podcast series. We'll see you then. In the meantime, if you would like to give us a rating or review, we would love that so much on whichever platform that you listen to us. It's really helpful for us to have feedback. So thank you so much and we'll see you very soon. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Rooted Podcast. To find out more about Bible Society's mission,

to invite people to discover the Bible for themselves in England, Wales and around the world. Visit biblesociety .org .uk