The Rooted Podcast

Speaker 1 (00:00.854)
Let's start by thinking about what Pentecost is.

I tend to leap onto the speaking in tongues and the power rather than actually recognizing this as God's presence.

A lot of commentators relate this back to The Tower of Babel. Now he's bringing people together, it's undoing Babel.

There's this idea that the Lord is coming once again in fire, but this time he's hovering over his new temple, his new holy place where he's going to dwell, which is people.

It's like having a toy and the toy is designed to work with a battery and it doesn't have a battery. The point about the spirit is that the spirit is what energizes them.

Speaker 3 (00:42.222)
We have God's presence living in us and empowering us.

Hi everyone. Welcome back to The Rooted Podcast. I'm Noelle and I'm here today with Mark and Esther. We are taking a break for the time being, so we're not going to have a podcast series on the newest Rooted journal that has just come out. But we are making this special bonus episode because we want to celebrate Pentecost. Pentecost is coming up. It is this Sunday. We wanted to just create this episode to talk about what Pentecost is, what happened on Pentecost, and it's a bit of a lead up.

to Bible Society's devotional series on Pentecost. So that's coming out on Sunday. You can sign up to it right now if you go to biblesociety.org.uk forward slash Pentecost. And when you sign up, we'll send you daily devotionals to your email every day. It'll be a devotional about Pentecost. And we're especially looking at the book of Acts. We're also going to be praying for a different part of the global church today. That's really been on our heart. We're going to look at

some research about the global church that we've learned through our Patmos research, which was recently released. It's going to be a great week. So if you want to join us, please sign up. But in this episode, we're just going to be discussing Pentecost and talking about how we can learn from this passage of scripture. So we're going to go right into it. Let's just start by thinking about what Pentecost is. Just to give some sort of facts to start out, Pentecost means 50th.

and it happens 50 days after Easter. So Pentecost Sunday is 50 days after Easter every year for many church traditions. And it's the celebration of the beginning of the church. So we read about Pentecost in Acts chapter 2, and it is the day that the Holy Spirit falls on the church and the church is born, basically, after Jesus has ascended. It's an absolutely huge moment in church history. And it also has some Old Testament roots. Mark, are you going to tell us a bit about that?

Speaker 2 (02:39.222)
Yeah, I can do. And they're very interesting routes. originally Easter and Passover were the same, the calendars diverged. So now, a couple of thousand years later, the Jewish Passover is not the same date usually as Easter. Please don't ask me to go into details about the calendar and how all that worked because that is higher mathematics as far as I'm concerned. Don't understand it at all. But the point is that the Pentecost was 50 days after Passover and it was called the Feast of Weeks.

So originally it was to celebrate the bringing in of the wheat harvest. So that was Exodus 34 verse 22, celebrate the festival of weeks with the first fruits of the wheat harvest 50 days after Passover. So it was an established festival in the Jewish calendar. So the other thing is that it was also 50 days after

Moses received the law on Mount Sinai. Now after Jerusalem fell in AD 70, the whole thing was reinterpreted. so nowadays, Jews celebrate Shavuot as a celebration of the giving of the law to Moses. So it's not really a harvest festival anymore, but it celebrates the giving of the law to Moses. And I just thought that was really interesting that the original Pentecost, if you like, was about the giving of the law and then

In Christian terms, the Spirit comes at Pentecost, which recalls to me some of the Old Testament prophecies. Like in Jeremiah, I will write my law on their hearts. And it's not that we become sort of independent of the law. It's not that we can just do whatever we like. It's just that we have a different way of relating to God. So it's not via the law for Christians. It's by a relationship with Jesus.

Yeah, I like that. It reminds me of the scripture in John that says, law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus. Yeah, that's great. So what happened on Pentecost? If we look at Acts 2, starting in verse 1, when the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound, like the blowing of a violent wind, came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.

Speaker 1 (05:00.63)
and all of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them." So this is a huge moment, but a lot of strange things happen. I guess the first thing that we see is the sound of violent wind, which is interesting because I think a lot of the times we think that there was a violent wind in the room, but actually the scripture says the sound like the blowing of a violent wind. But is that significant? I mean, I think it is. The wind, the fire, there's something special going on here.

I think the first thing I think of is the fact that the Lord comes in wind and fire a lot in the Old Testament. So, if you especially think of Moses at the burning bush, this is another time we see fire that isn't burning something up. And here on Pentecost, we see fire that isn't burning something up. And I think a lot of the time in the Old Testament, when the Lord comes in wind and fire, for example, at the burning bush, we see Him come in fire on Mount Sinai.

they get to Mount Sinai, there's a fire on the mountain and there's a windstorm. And that's when, you the fire and the wind is a sign of God's presence. And I think it's a sign a lot of the time that He's marking somewhere as a holy place. So, He marks Mount Sinai as a holy place. And again, later the tabernacle is built on that same mountain and the Lord hovers in a column of fire over it.

So when I think about this and some of the things I've read about it are kind of saying there's this idea that the Lord is coming once again in fire, but this time He's hovering over His new temple, His new tabernacle, His new holy place where He's going to dwell, which is people.

Yeah, I actually love that observation because I think quite often when I thought about Pentecost before in the coming of the Holy Spirit, I tend to kind of leap onto the speaking in tongues and the power basically, the things they go and do, rather than actually recognizing this as God's presence coming in that place. not just, I guess in the Old Testament, you've also got times where

Speaker 3 (07:03.886)
will say, you know, the spirit of the Lord came upon such and such a person and sort of empowers and enables them to do something. But here, this is about more than that. It's like you said, it's dwelling. It's actually being united with the people of God, which is Christ's body, the church. Yeah. So it's important not to miss that when we rush onto being like, okay, what does this mean? What can we now do? Because it's pretty mind blowing.

Yeah, I think it is. the wind and the fire come, the Holy Spirit is dwelling on them, resting on them, and then they begin to speak in other languages or speak in tongues. So in the church, there's the understanding of speaking in tongues like glossolalia. And then I think a lot of people think in this passage, that's not exactly what's happening, but instead they seem to be speaking in other languages because the people that are around them, we read in the next verses, say, how are they speaking in our languages? And they seem to hear them and understand them.

So that seems to be something they're given by the Holy Spirit.

Yeah, it's a different sort of miracle, isn't it really? I think there are a couple of things here really. One is that this was a crowd of Jews and most of the Jews would have understood the same language. A lot of them would have spoken Aramaic. The fact that they lived in Parthia didn't mean that they spoke Parthian, whatever the language there. would probably still speak Aramaic. But there does seem to be something more going on here because that long list of countries and regions extends

beyond the areas. Apparently, according to the commentary I read, it extends beyond the areas where Jews would have habitually lived. So it looks as though what is being described here is a miracle, which is, as you say, separate from the sort of speaking in terms of the glossolalia, which is described elsewhere, arguably. So I think this is a miracle of understanding, really.

Speaker 2 (08:57.44)
a lot of commentators relate this back to the Tower of Babel. In the Tower of Babel in Genesis chapter 11, you've got the languages of the world confused so that people aren't able to accomplish their task of building a tower up to heaven and rivaling God and everything. So God confuses the languages. Now he's bringing people together, so it's undoing Babel. I think one of the things that strikes me is just the

the sheer size and the scope of the church today. so, you know, we're from all different countries, all tribes and nations, and it's this sort of vast body all over the world. And yet we have this amazing thing in common, which is that we all serve the same Lord, and we all believe, you know, more or less the same things. And we are one body, we are one family. And so we aren't divided anymore. Not at that, you know, that really deep level, we are not divided.

There are some sad divisions still, but fundamentally we are one and Babel is undone. I think that's the idea behind this.

Yeah, and as well as that kind of fulfillment of a promise really or a restoration of something that was lost, I think this directly relates to the Great Commission. You know, obviously Acts comes after Luke's Gospel and in most of

Gospel accounts, you've got something about the Great Commission that Jesus gives to his disciples right at the end where he says, you know, well, this is from Matthew, but, therefore, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I've commanded you and behold, I'm with you always to the end of the age. How would they achieve that?

Speaker 3 (10:39.864)
Pentecost, you've got everybody coming to Jerusalem to celebrate a festival. So you've got a great in-gathering of people from all over the regions where people would have been spread. And then the disciples, what they go out, it's not just that they're speaking in tongues and people can understand them, but it's what they're saying. They're sharing about the mighty deeds of God. They are preaching the gospel. They are teaching the nations. And I'm sure they were saying, this is what God has commanded you.

And that important bit at the end about the Holy Spirit is God's presence with them. It's Jesus's presence with them. He's saying, I will be with you. I'm going to empower you to do this. So it just unites in this moment and they're enabled to do that. This is the first sort of, I guess it's the first wave of them acting on this great commission.

Yeah. And then from there, we see on this day, 3,000 people are saved and added to the church. And then from there, they start this church community who do everything together and live together and serve God together. So it's a beautiful thing. It's the start of the church. The Pentecost Reflections that we're putting out starting on Sunday, they're going to start at Acts 2, sort of this big moment. But we actually wanted to take some time to just look at what comes right before that.

So in Acts 1, Luke tells us that when Jesus left the disciples, when He was going to ascend into heaven, He tells them to wait, to wait for the Holy Spirit and to wait for power that will come to them from on high. So we see this in Acts 1 and we also see it at the end of Luke's Gospel.

Maybe what do we think Jesus is getting out here? Why does he want them to wait for the Holy Spirit? Why is it so important? You could think that they maybe had everything they needed from Jesus to start this movement, but Jesus is really set on them waiting for the Holy Spirit.

Speaker 3 (12:28.546)
we've also had that in John, the Gospel of John, chapter 14, where he says, will send you a helper, you know, an advocate who will lead you in all truth, reminding you of things. And I think what he says is, I will ask the Father to send this helper as well. So you've got like this Trinitarian sort of relationship here, and it comes from God, it's requested by Jesus, it's the Spirit of Jesus.

There's a lot in that passage in John 14 too about him not abandoning them. He says, I'm not going to leave you as orphans. So I think there's something in there. Why do they have to wait? It's because this is a promise from the father. He's going away, but he's giving them this presence in his place and they're going to do his work.

Jesus has been with them. They've seen him race from the dead and so on. So they're kind of all set to do whatever is the next thing. But to me it says something like, you know, it's like having a toy and the toy's designed to work with a battery and it doesn't have a battery. you know, until you put the battery in, it can't actually do anything, it can't go anywhere. And I think the point about the spirit is that the spirit is what energises them and the spirit makes it

possible for them to do things that they couldn't otherwise have done. And I think without the spirit, you know, it's just another philosophy, basically. is just another philosophy. And I think the whole idea behind this is that, you know, it's more than that. And that if we are indwelt by the spirit, then we're given the power to do things that we would never otherwise be able to do.

Yeah, I think the word power there is important. The Lord says, will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you. And it seems that without that kind of power that the Holy Spirit gives, they wouldn't be able to do what they've been called to do. So, He's essential. But they don't really seem to get it either. They ask Him, they ask Jesus, Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel? And that's when He says, it's not for you to know the times or dates. The Father is set by His own authority, but you will receive power.

Speaker 1 (14:36.024)
when the Holy Spirit comes.

Well, I do think that is, and it's funny that they asked that question directly after he sort of said, you know, you're going to receive this power to be my witnesses to Jerusalem, Judea and to the ends of the earth. So that's very like outward looking, whereas their question seems to be quite, you know, center of power focused. Is this going to be the establishment of our kingdom and power here? So yeah, they really don't seem to have got it.

Yeah, it does strike me as a bit kind of amazing after all of that teaching, after all that Jesus has said to them about the kingdom and His way. And even after His death and resurrection, they don't quite get it. But I wonder if something shifts a bit when the Holy Spirit comes. I wonder if something changes. Because I think the Holy Spirit does bring power to them that we see externally, but we know that the Holy Spirit also builds us internally in our character. It's almost like He's the way that we can actually

carry any power and authority well on the earth or else our character is lacking, we don't have the fruit of the spirit, we don't have him living within us and we crumble. So I wonder if they too needed him to sort of guide them in their hearts as well.

you look at Acts there's progression in the lives of the disciples as well. So Peter obviously was right there at Pentecost. it's in Acts chapter 10 that he has this vision of Cornelius and it's at that point that he understands that the church is not just going to be a Jewish church. It's for the Gentiles as well. They have to be admitted on equal terms.

Speaker 2 (16:09.886)
know, it's not about keeping the Jewish law and circumcision and all that sort of thing. You know, the gospel is for everyone and Christ is for everyone and it's taken him 10 chapters to realize that, you know. And if you think about it, were people who, you know, before they started following Jesus about, they might not even have covered the amount of ground that they covered with Jesus, you know. It's not as if they'd have been wandering up and down the length and breadth of Israel because they had a living to earn, you know. So these were not well-traveled people.

They might have had very little sense of the world outside Judea, the world outside Galilee. They knew about Rome, obviously, but they didn't know much about Rome. All they knew was that Rome was this oppressive power which was dominating them. They'd never seen a map or anything like that. The whole world operated on a scale which they wouldn't have understood. Suddenly, they came to realize that, I think gradually rather than suddenly.

I do think that's a key point though, a key question to ask. Why did they suddenly start going on these missionary journeys and traveling this much? Because I think the Holy Spirit is a really key driver in that because you've got those early chapters which are amazing to read. These gatherings, people sharing everything, praying and the place where they're praying is shaken. It's super inspiring to read today. But then quite quickly, what we get is persecution ramping up.

and you get the stoning of Stephen. And actually lots of these new believers are scattered out of Jerusalem. For their own safety, they have to leave, but they take the gospel with them and they take the Holy Spirit with them and it just sets these fires everywhere they go. I think it's interesting, we tend to think of a missionary journey. It might be like a decision that we make, but in Acts, it seems to be not necessarily just them deciding, we should, let's just

go to Turkey or let's go to wherever. They're sort of driven out of Jerusalem by persecution, but then they are guided by the Holy Spirit to take the gospel elsewhere. I think you see that particularly in the bits about Paul where it will say that the Holy Spirit prevents him from going to this place, but then says, I want you to go over here.

Speaker 2 (18:22.178)
There's something there to me in what you've just said, Esther, that takes me back to the tongues of fire, because it says that the fire comes and it separates and comes to rest on each one of them. the fire separates, but each of the flames is burning just as brightly as the one flame does. And when they go and take the gospel out into all these different communities, all these different countries, that's what's happening. They're taking

the fire of the spirit along with them. And so they're kind of replicating what was done to them in that upper room.

We want to talk a bit about what we can learn from the early church. before we do that, there is one thing that's interesting, which is that there seems to be a contradiction between the end of Luke and the beginning of Acts. So at the end of Luke, they're in Bethany, but in the beginning of Acts, they're in Jerusalem. What's going on there?

I looked at this actually and there is an apparent contradiction because in Acts it does seem to say that they are in Jerusalem. It says they're on the Mount of Olives, is a Sabbath day's journey about a kilometre from the city. I have stood on the Mount of Olives actually, I've looked out over the city, it's quite a thing. In Luke, they're definitely in the vicinity of Bethany it says. But actually, I don't think there is a contradiction here. Bethany is really close to Jerusalem.

it's just to the east of the city. So if you are standing on the Mount of Olives, that's to the east of the city. So it's just a question of how you describe where the disciples are standing. And both of them could very well be true. And certainly, Luke wrote the Gospel of Luke and Luke wrote Acts. And so it's not as if he would have contradicted himself. he didn't see any contradiction there. I really don't see a problem with that, actually.

Speaker 3 (20:14.718)
It could be that in Acts, because he's turning his focus to Pentecost, which meant people coming to Jerusalem, that he then sort of pins it there or describes it as Jerusalem rather than specifically Bethany because yeah, it locates the whole scenario, doesn't it? Yeah, that's right.

Interesting. Interesting the things you don't notice when you're just reading. I don't think I ever would have just... Also, you know, one book doesn't follow after the other. You usually read another gospel in between, but that's interesting. So what can we learn from the early church? These people who God has said are going to be the people that He now dwells with. They have the Holy Spirit. And this is the beginning of a movement. What can we learn from them?

think one of the things that I immediately think of is, you know, I think of kind of many conversations that I've had in different church contexts and kind of at Bible Society when we're thinking about how do we share God's Word with people. And quite often we think about strategies that we need, know, things that we could do to find these people, to get them to, you know, come to believe in Jesus. I don't, I'm sure most people haven't forgotten that the Holy Spirit is what's empowering this. It's not.

all our own efforts. And it's not to say that we shouldn't be making efforts and strategizing, but I think it is that awareness that when we're thinking of the Great Commission and our role as Christians today and spreading the gospel today, we are not doing this in our own strength. We're not doing it on our own. We have God's presence living in us and empowering us to do it. And I think that might seem like quite a subtle point, but I think it does reframe what we're doing significantly.

You know, we're not alone. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:55.456)
I think for me, what stands out is the sheer courage of the disciples actually. I mean, they've just seen Jesus crucified, and that was a particularly horrible way to die. They know the feelings of the Jewish leaders, and they're willing to literally put their lives on the line. They're going to do this because that's what God's called them to do. And I think the courage that they show is absolutely extraordinary.

Yeah. I like as well Acts 2, 42 through 47 tells us a bit about how they lived.

Speaker 1 (22:44.898)
They broke bread in their homes and they ate together with glad and sincere hearts. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved." Just amazing fruit. Like, can you imagine all those things happening within our community? We're really glad when one of those things happen at church. Like, if we see people being added to church or if we, you know, meeting for home group or things like that, like, we celebrate these things. But it's as if all of these things are happening together. This is sort of like...

this is what we would love to see. This is how I would love for my church community to look. And especially some of these things that just seem impossible today, like sharing things in common. I think they're more possible than we think they are, but we do live in capitalism and wealth and we don't need to share things in common and that sort of a thing. I just, I look at this picture and I think to myself, I would love to have more of that in my own community. I think it's a really good example of what life can look like in a church community.

So just imagine the strengthening that you would get and the encouragement in those kind of daily encounters together, praying and worshipping together to then go out and boldly proclaim the gospel because Acts is just punctuated, isn't it? Wherever they go, yes, there's that kind of unity and sharing, but then there's also going to the local synagogue and directly engaging with people or later when are they in Athens or something.

So it's not necessarily in the synagogue, but they're talking in, is it the aureopagus? I probably pronounced it incorrectly. But know, directly engaging with people to challenge the thoughts and ideas that those people have about God or the way the world works and to say, this is the truth. This is the hope that you have. You need to follow this way of Jesus. And those are fiery sermons. They're not, you know, comfortable all the time. And that's why you get some people really reacting well and other people breathing out murderous threats.

you'd need a power source for that. Obviously, you've got the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, but you've also got the community that is your support and strength, and then you can boldly speak. It makes me think as well about the many occasions in Acts where the Jewish leaders try to shut the apostles down and say, you will not preach this message anymore. And they say, well, who are we going to obey, God or men? That boldness that they have is

Speaker 3 (25:03.874)
so inspiring. I feel like that is a big message for the church today. Are we as bold as we could be? I think you need wisdom in that.

I think the community thing that both of you have talked about is really important as well, actually. Bible Society has just done a report called The Quiet Revival, and one of the things that report shows is that churchgoers are far more likely to be involved in their local community than non-churchgoers. They're far more likely to volunteer, far more likely to give to charity, far more likely to say that they're

they feel connected to their local community. And I think that is just a reflection of what can happen when people really are sort of rooted in a community together, in a fellowship together, and they feel that they're part of a family. I think it has effects which spill out from far beyond that immediate circle.

And it's not just about turning up a church on Sunday, which is great. People should do that. But, you know, it has effects which spread far wider.

also think it's interesting, Esther, what you were saying about boldness and how that's a part of our lives with the Holy Spirit. Because it makes me think about how on Pentecost it says everyone thought that they were drunk and they don't understand. I guess I wonder about that because speaking in other languages isn't exactly what happens when you get drunk. I mean, I'm sure none of us here have been drunk. you know, if you have, you don't just start speaking another language and then people go, looks like you're drunk.

Speaker 1 (26:42.168)
So I kind of go, well, why did people think that they were drunk? What were they doing? Were they sort of falling over and like, you know? But part of me wonders about this boldness thing because when you are drunk, you lose some of your inhibition, don't you? You more boldly say things that maybe you wouldn't say otherwise. And a lot of the times, those aren't great things. But I wonder a little bit, this sort of boldness that seems to come over the church when the Holy Spirit comes on them. And I think boldness is something that grows within us. I think it's a character development. I think it's

It's not just necessarily if you feel drunk in the Holy Spirit. But I think there's something really powerful about that for us today. Where does this boldness to share the gospel come from? I do a lot of work with youth at my church, and a lot of them are quite afraid to talk about God at school and things like that. And so I'm always asking myself, this boldness that the early church had, where does that come from? Is that this sort drunkenness? I know it grows within us, but I wonder a bit about that.

Yeah, I mean, equally, if you've been around someone who's just become a Christian and just can't stop telling people, you know, they don't have those inhibitions always, you know, they're all they just like, well, I'm going to tell everyone because this has changed my life and I want it to change your life. think, yeah, it's difficult because you can't force it and you can't, you know, you don't want to manufacture something that isn't authentic. But the more we praise and worship God and realize how amazing it is what he's done for us and the more we

realise that we have God's presence dwelling in us and we have a great message for people. The more excited that should make us feel, and you know, I'm guilty of not always being excited about it, you know, but I want God to kind of, you know, continually relight that fire in me and that whole community aspect and loving others, you know, and giving to others. I want God to ignite me with more love for other people so that I

You know, I don't really mind how they react. I'd rather share the good news with them because I love them, share everything I have with them that's of value, than hold it back because I think, what if they say something unpleasant? Do you know what I mean? It's easier said than done, obviously. I'm not claiming that I'm going to go out tomorrow and be a perfect witness, but I do want to be a witness for the mighty deeds of God. And I want to see the church grow today and spread everywhere.

Speaker 1 (29:02.766)
Well, thank you guys. Thanks for another good episode, a good conversation about Pentecost. We're gonna go ahead and end there. Again, if you would like to join us for the week of Pentecost and get some devotionals into your email, you can sign up at biblesociety.org.uk forward slash Pentecost and we'll be praying together for the church. Thanks Esther and Mark and thank you everyone for listening. We'll see you next time.

Thanks.

cast.

society's mission to invite people to discover the

for themselves in England, Wales and around the world.

Speaker 1 (29:37.954)
around the world, visit biblesociety.org.uk.