The Rooted Podcast

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Is it okay for a Christian to have wealth? I think it's a really common question, especially for those of us that may feel that we do. those with a lot, the challenge may be pride. For those who have very little, the challenge may actually be trusting God. Both those extremes bring with them certain temptations that undermine the fear of the Lord in different ways. And given that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, I think that's really important. It's wealth within community, and it's less about who holds.

any of it at what given time. what they do with it. A lot of what Proverbs is trying to teach us about money has to do with how we treat other people based on what we have. Don't withhold blessings that you could share or bestow on others. How do we read Proverbs or how do we approach this topic as people who maybe haven't suffered from poverty as many people have? You're listening to the Rooted Podcast from Bible Society.

In each series, we take a closer look at a theme or book of the Bible and explore its relevance in our lives today. This is our series on Proverbs. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to The Rooted Podcast. I'm Noelle and I'm here with Esther and we're also here with Liam, who's going to be a special guest on today's episode. Today's the third episode of our Proverbs series. In the last two episodes, we've looked a bit at wisdom, personification of wisdom, wisdom in Proverbs and in the New Testament.

And in this episode, we're going to focus a bit on a theme that comes up throughout the book of Proverbs, which is wealth and money and how Christians can deal well with the money that we have. As I've said, we've got Liam Thatcher here, who is a good friend of ours. He used to work at Bible Society, and now he's pastoring at Oxford Community Church. And we're really happy to have him back. Liam also wrote for the Proverbs edition of Rooted. So Liam, thank you so much for being here.

It's great to be here. I always enjoy these conversations. It's great to be back. Yeah, let's just get right into it. I thought something interesting to start with could just be talking a bit about what we mean when we talk about wealth. Proverbs has so much to say about it and so does all of scripture. But obviously, when we think about wealth today, it can be very different to have people thought about wealth, the people who were originally reading Proverbs. I think that's such a good question, Noelle, because

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Even just when you use the word wealth, I think many of us, like our mind probably goes to the most kind of outlandish picture that we might have in our minds of, of like somebody who's super rich, living in a huge mansion, lots of fancy cars, holidays, all of that kind of thing. And, you know, that is a definition of wealth. Wealth can mean sort of extravagant riches, but maybe it is a bit skewed.

Because across the world, wealth can mean many different things. You also asked obviously about wealth in the Bible and in Old Testament times, think wealth was mostly, wasn't it, in land, livestock, maybe in gold, silver and copper, perhaps. But sort of that's a different picture again of wealth from what we might think today where our money is sort of invisible. It might even...

know, might not even just be a number in the bank, it could be this mysterious Bitcoin that I know nothing about. Yes, I think, well, just take some of the imagery that you find in proverbs, it does of course speak of gold and of jewels and of precious things. But you're right, wealth is less to do with what you have in a bank account in this context, and more to do with the abundance of what you have for your regular life, but then your ability to

provide for your family and give to others and that sort of thing. I think when just going through proverbs and trying to read all the passages about wealth, it could be easy just to search for gold or jewels or whatever. actually grain, oil, wine, these are all symbols of abundance in some sense and blessing. And even things like the colours of particular cloths represent that you have more wealth maybe than someone else. So we've got to look for all that kind of imagery as well as the

the stuff that we might typically consider to be signs of wealth, gold, silver, etc. Yeah, it's also interesting how Proverbs, wisdom, we talked about this wisdom being personified in Proverbs, and wisdom actually says in Proverbs 8 verse 18, riches and honor are with me, enduring riches and righteousness. So there's also this understanding in Proverbs that, and we sort of think about this way, we think about this as Christians don't we, that wealth can also mean

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having a family, having the things that really matter in life, we can look at that person, look at someone like that and say, they're wealthy, they have love and they have relationships and they have rest and they have peace and that's wealth. So obviously when we're in this conversation, we are more talking about material wealth, aren't we? But Proverbs also points us back to what wealth really can mean aside from material possessions as well. Another thing that might be interesting to talk about before we start is

For us on this podcast, and many of us sort of living in what is typically called the West in this age, we have a lot of wealth, don't we? And many of us haven't really ever struggled with significant poverty or lack. I was thinking about how I read the Gospels a lot of the time, and I'm reading, I think I've actually said this on the podcast, but a lot of the time I'm reading from above as someone who is in a good place, has money,

maybe has authority, maybe has some sort of power. And I'm not reading from below in a lot of the stories in which people Jesus is loving on are marginalized or impoverished. I'm not reading from that perspective. I'm reading from sort of, does that make sense? And so I think it's really interesting as we read in Proverbs, I guess, how do we read Proverbs or how do we approach this topic as people who maybe haven't suffered from poverty as many people have?

Yeah, absolutely. I was doing a bit of research, you know, trying to look at sort of statistics on poverty, global poverty and wealth in 2024. And it's just crazy when you really look at some of this information, like 8.5 % of the world's population lives in extreme poverty. And when we say extreme poverty, that's defined as they're living on less than

$2.15 or I think that's about £1.72 per person per day. I mean, and that's 692 million people thereabouts. And even if you sort of up that a little bit, so people living on less than £2.91 a day, that's 1.7 billion people around the world. So I just, when I think about

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how I might spend £2.91. Yeah, I think that lens of what poverty or what wealth is globally and then what it is in my life and what I do with my wealth, we have to have those lenses on sometimes to really appreciate what we're talking about.

Yeah, and I think one of the tricky things for me about proverbs is the way it often has types of people is the fool, the rich, the poor. It makes you think in sort binary categories or you think what category do I fit in? And so I can often look at these things and think, well, I don't consider myself to be the rich. But when you think of it in a global perspective, absolutely I am. And there are moments where

maybe I assume that I fit a particular category and something in Proverbs and in scripture just gets to your heart and you realize, gosh, I'm in an entirely different place to where I thought I was. And we had this experience the other day where my daughter had a friend of hers around and just came into our house and walked into our kitchen and then just went, wow, you have a toaster. And it was this heartbreaking moment where obviously we, parents, we were aware of what was going on and

We sort of talked to her and welcomed her in. then afterwards, my daughter came to us once this friend had gone home and said, daddy, are we rich? And it just led to a really helpful conversation. But there was that moment of sudden realization through seeing something through someone else's eyes that actually brought a sort of revelation and understanding that the categories that I had thought I fit in are maybe different. There's a challenge that Proverbs wants to bring that sometimes just catches you off guard. You suddenly realize, wow, maybe

there are things that this text wants to speak to me that I wasn't even aware of. Yeah, that's good. I think about other proverbs as well, where I read it thinking that, you know, for the most part, I'd like to be the wise person, but then it says something that the whole does and you go, I totally have done that or do that. And yes, it's very revealing, isn't it? Yeah, I think all of us should be challenged as we read proverbs because there'll be times where the wise

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person part is very aspirational for us and definitely times where we're exposed by like, yes, I have been a fool and I'm in danger of being a fool again. I think when it comes back to wealth though, I just want to make sure that we don't demonize wealth because I don't think Proverbs does that either. It's not sort of demonizing people who have a lot of wealth. Wealth is sort of neutral in a way, but it is, there are general principles in here.

that everything we have comes from God. By wisdom, He made the world and He made us and He's given us everything we have, even the breath in our lungs. And there's a verse in there, I think it's Proverbs 3, 9 to 10 that talks about giving your first fruits to God. So there's that idea of like nothing we have

is really ours in a sense. It doesn't belong to us. It's been given to us. And then we're supposed to use it in a certain way that honors God first and then sort of fulfills his commandments to us about loving him and loving others. So yeah, I, and I do think that yes, we can think about global wealth and poverty. But there is also that conversation in our actual communities that we're in.

We may not be the most wealthy in our community, but what's the dynamic that Proverbs talks about that we can still learn from and still adopt in that setting? Because I might not be able to impact somebody all the way around the world, not directly, but I can impact my community. Yeah. Even that word first fruits that you just highlighted there indicates something different about the way we should think about wealth in Proverbs versus today.

First fruits make sense in an agrarian society where you are dependent on the seasons and you're dependent on growth and you actually get the first fruits, which indicates hopefully there's more, but you give out of the first fruits, you've even got the rest in. So there's an act of trust there. Whereas I and we are so insulated from that sort of fear or

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risk, I suppose, associated with dependence on the seasons. You know, I have a contract, I know what money is coming in every month, I know what bills are going out. I have social safety nets, I suppose, in terms of benefits or that sort of stuff, but none of which was there in that ancient society. So I can easily depend on myself and on wealth and on structures and systems and the government and all that sort of stuff in a way that actually the original readers and writers of proverbs wouldn't have been able to.

Yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah. Speaking of not demonizing wealth, I think one of the main things we really want to pull out of Proverbs when it talks about wealth is the fact that it challenges the extremes of wealth. And this is something really brilliant that actually Liam pointed out to us. But we just wanted to just take a moment to think that through the Proverbs. It's not just saying to be poor is bad or to be super wealthy is bad, but it actually has a challenge for each of those.

Or Liam, do you want to read this verse that sort of addresses that, which is in Proverbs 37 to 10? Yeah, so I think this is just a really helpful prayer and kind of a, I guess, a key to the whole topic of wealth within Proverbs. So it says, two things I ask of you, Lord, do not refuse me before I die. Keep falsehood and lies far from me. Give me neither poverty nor riches. So there's two extremes, but give me only my daily bread.

Otherwise I may have too much and disown you and say, is the Lord? Or I may become poor and steal and so dishonor the name of my God." I love that prayer because I think it recognizes that there are temptations associated with both. There's not one that is necessarily easier or better than the other. So for those with a lot, the challenge may be pride. Look at what I've got. I'm so self-sufficient. Haven't I done well? And you end up saying, well, who is God? Because you don't feel you need him. Whereas

For those who have very little, the challenge may actually be trusting God. It may be that you feel the need to take things into your own hand and gain wealth by dishonest means. Both those extremes bring with them certain temptations that undermine the fear of the Lord in different ways. Given that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, I think that's really important. Either you fail to fear him because you think you don't need him, or you fail to fear him in the sense of honoring him or trusting him. I think wealth brings both of those temptations.

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Yeah, definitely. Yeah, so let's look into this little bit. So let's start with challenges to those with wealth. So we just wanted to pull some different proverbs and just look at them, proverbs that challenge people who have a lot. Something I find really interesting about a lot of these proverbs, actually, as I was reading, is that there seems to always be a connection between, or most of, a lot of the time there's a connection between the person who has a lot and the person who doesn't in the same proverb. And I think it's a really good reminder that

A lot of what Proverbs is trying to teach us about money has to do with how we treat other people based on what we have. And I think that's a really key thing to think about. It's not just what do I do with my own money for myself, but the whole point is how does what I have impact how I treat someone else? Is it okay for a Christian to have wealth? I think it's a really common question, especially for those of us that may feel that we do. Does Proverbs speak to that?

I think it's quite complicated just as you were speaking because so many times throughout Proverbs, it basically says that the person who's righteous or the person who tends to follow this principle or honors God in this way will be blessed with wealth. So, if it's being presented as this blessing, so in that sense, I don't think, you know, I...

I just have to say, like, I don't think we're meant to read Proverbs as saying that, if you're good, you will get this. If you're not good, you won't. It's a general principles thing, but I don't think that we can say that having, according to Proverbs, having wealth is bad. But I do like what you've kind of brought out, Liam, with that prayer, that passage from Proverbs 30 about.

sort of there being a balance. And I do like what you said, Noel, about there being this dynamic between, you know, it's wealth within community and it's less about who holds any of it at what given time, it's what they do with it. And do you mind if I just read a passage that I think illustrates that a bit? So this is Proverbs 11 from verse 23. The desire of the righteous ends only in good.

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The expectation of the wicked in wrath. One gives freely yet grows all the richer. Another withholds what he should give and only suffers want. Whoever brings blessing will be enriched and one who waters will himself be watered. The people curse him who holds back grain, but a blessing is on the head of him who sells it. Whoever diligently seeks good seeks favor, but evil comes to him who searches.

for it, whoever trusts in his riches will fall, but the righteous will flourish like a green leaf. And it goes on, but you really get that sense, don't you? Okay, so you've got the person here, the rich person, let's say, kind of being warned. It's not bad that they have the wealth, but it's saying, don't hold onto it. Don't withhold blessings that you could share or bestow on others.

And actually you don't need to be anxious about holding onto it because in the giving away of it and in that blessing that you hand on to others, you will be further enriched and further blessed. So I think that dynamic is so beautifully captured there.

Yeah, and for me, think there's a link between the wisdom and the wealth. And there'd be one way of reading some of the bits in Proverbs, for example, Proverbs 8, it says, choose my instruction instead of silver, knowledge rather than choice gold, for wisdom is more precious than rubies, nothing you desire can compare with her. So chapter eight, verses 10 to 11. There'd be one way of reading that, which is to say, pursue wisdom instead of all these tools in a way that almost demonizes the wealth. actually, if you think back to Solomon's own story,

It's a bit more nuanced than that, isn't it? The Lord asked him in 2 Chronicles 1, what would you like? And he asked for wisdom and the Lord says, well, because you've asked for that and not these other things, I'm actually going to give you wealth as well. And it seems to suggest that actually if you've got the wisdom, then you can handle wealth. And there's also that dynamic that you talked about Esther there about actually if you pursue the path of wisdom, maybe you will be blessed with wealth as well. But if you take wisdom out of the equation and you just pursue the wealth,

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that's going to lead to disaster. So if wealth is okay for us to have as Christians, as long as we have it alongside wisdom, what does that look like? Like how is that good? What does a life like that look like? Because I think that's what a lot of people want to know with wealth who are Christians. Okay, if it is okay for me to have this money that maybe God has blessed me with, then what does it look like for me to wisely care for it, steward it? Yeah. I wonder if we should

take a step back a little bit further as well, because I think that there is wisdom in proverbs not only to handle wealth once you have it, but to actually acquire it as well. Proverbs does speak using metaphors of sowing and tending and reaping and harvesting and storing up in order to suggest that there is a way of using wisdom in order to actually acquire wealth as well. So a couple of verses that stood out to me.

Proverbs 21, 20, the wise store up choice food and olive oil, but fools gulp theirs down. There's a wisdom about having a long-term mindset rather than just enjoying wealth for what it gives you at the moment. Proverbs 13, 22, a good person leaves an inheritance for their children's children. There's something about caring for your family and passing on things. I think there are tips about good financial management here. Proverbs 27,

23 to 24, be sure you know the condition of your flocks, give careful attention to your herds for riches do not endure forever and a crown is not secure for all generations. There's something about just taking stock of what you actually have and being aware of it. And then Proverbs 13, 11, whoever gathers money little by little makes it grow. There's this encouragement even to maybe saving in increments. there's both a wisdom to acquire wealth and then a wisdom to steward it well and to not allow it to.

steal your heart, suppose. Wisdom covers the whole range of things really, which I find fascinating. But I think in what you've said there, you know, what does it look like when we are wise in a godly way with the wealth that we have? It looks like individual, family and community flourishing, doesn't it? It benefits everyone. I don't think that's just in these Proverbs. mean, really Proverbs in a way, I think.

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they're sort of like fleshing out, what does it look like to keep God's laws? You know, all those detailed laws even about, you know, land ownership and what should be done with this and how many years you should be doing that with your crops and stuff like that. It's all about stewarding in a way. Things, relationships, our relationship with others, our relationship with God. And this is what wisdom applied.

can look like and it is a beautiful picture. don't know if you covered this before in previous podcast, but even the fact that it is presented as the Proverbs of Solomon, I mean, his name contains Shalom, right? So it's almost like this is a picture of a life of Shalom, of wholeness, of fullness, of everything working as it's intended. And yes, I think when you have wisdom and you fear the Lord first, then everything should flourish. Your life, your family life, your community, the world around you, every part of it should

overflow with the peace and shalom of God. And there's so much too in problems about giving, isn't there? Which is a huge aspect, I think, of living with wisdom, with wealth, is that I'm constantly thinking about how I can give. A pastor that I used to be under, he used to say, when I'm faced with an opportunity to give, I don't ask God if I should give, I ask him how much. I remember that really changed the way that I thought about giving. As someone who has

money in the West. I started to think, am I actually ever looking for opportunities to give? Is that my mindset towards giving or is it actually, should I not give in this circumstance or can I get away with not giving in this case? But instead changing that. And I think that's really reflected in Proverbs, in so many of them. I have Proverbs 22, 22 to 23 here. Do not rob the poor because he is poor nor oppressed, he afflicted at the gate.

for the Lord will plead their cause and plunder the soul of those who plunder them." And there countless Proverbs like this where it's very clear that the Lord will fight for the poor and stand with them, which in my mind is like Him doing the most that He could possibly do to say that I'm going to be there with them if they're oppressed. And I think it's just a huge

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It's almost a warning really, but it's a huge guideline for us to say that this is what the Lord cares about. This is one of the biggest things throughout scripture that the Lord is constantly hitting on is giving to the poor. And so I think that is a huge part of what Proverbs is trying to pull out when it comes to living wisely with money. Yeah, and also the intentionality of it, like you said, because to be honest, a lot of the giving that I do, I may be set up a direct debit with a charity.

years ago and it just ticks on every month and how much do I really think about and put, you know, cover my giving in prayer? But then also where's the, if I tell myself, my giving tick, I've ticked that box, but what about the people that are right there in front of me and they don't necessarily want a donation that comes to them in some way, shape or form through an organization? How can I,

give and be generous with the person who's right there in my life. And I don't think that's necessarily just talking about homeless people or whatever. I really like from Proverbs three actually, this is verse 28, do not say to your neighbor, so this is the person who's right there, do not say to your neighbor, go and come again tomorrow, I will give it. When you have it, the thing they're asking for with you right then, why would you withhold that help?

Why wouldn't you be sort of responsive, immediate and intentional in your giving? Yeah. Yeah. And it strikes me as well that while we're talking right now about giving, the other side of that is also not to perpetuate injustice that puts people into poverty. So Noelle, I love the way you said it about God being on the side of the poor. That being the case for those of us who

are businessmen, and of course many of these people would have employed others. There's something about not acquiring wealth through unjust acts that oppress others. And there's loads of warning actually about being on the side of justice in Proverbs as well, which I think is really important. Yeah, that's really good. I heard this quote once, which is a bit convicting, but it said, if you love the poor, name them. Like, do you know anyone who's poor? Is there anyone in your life who's actually poor?

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And I'm from Baltimore in the States and I used to go to church in Baltimore City. It is in the inner city and there was tons of poor people and I really enjoyed that because it felt as if I could really get to know people who didn't have much and I could really make a difference and I can really make a change. And then I moved here to Hertfordshire, which is like a very sort of, I guess you'd say middle class, but it's very, you know, it's harder to find the poor where I live.

And I've had to be much more intentional with it. But there are some that come to our church and come to different sort of, we put on a meal every week for the poor and sort of the lonely in our town. And it's changed, it has changed me so much being here, getting to know people who have less. And just one story, my husband and I had our friend over for dinner and

He, I would say, is poor and lives by himself. And he was very open with us about his financial circumstances. And basically he lives in a month off of half of one of our salaries, my husband and I, of what we make in a month. And he was just saying all of the things about himself, like, I don't really need much heat. Like, I'm just fine. I've just gotten used to it. all these things that we hold essential. And I remember when he left.

my husband and I just turned to each other and being like, we don't need this, we shouldn't get this, we don't need this thing. And just being really convicted about how much we think that we need to live a comfortable life versus how much we actually need. And it's really stuck with me months and months later. So I do think that when I was reading Proverbs, I do think there is supposed to be this relationship between those who don't have and those who do, because I think both can learn from each other.

and that that's really important. Yeah, and I really like the way you emphasise community there. Because I think one of the things that struck me when I was reading that prayer earlier from Proverbs 30 about the daily bread is, give me neither poverty nor riches, but give me only my daily bread. And of course, that triggers in your mind the Lord's Prayer, right? But in the Lord's Prayer, it's not just my daily bread, it's give us this day our daily bread.

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is the essentials of life, but it's based in community as well. there's this sense of wanting all the community to be flourishing with their essentials. But also it reminds me of the book of James, which many people say is effectively the Proverbs of the New Testament, right? So it feels very much like the book of Proverbs as wisdom literature. And so much of it is about caring for those within your community who have material needs.

And I think there's that corporate communal element of flourishing. I can't pursue my own flourishing at the expense of others. We're meant to be flourishing in community together. Yeah, that reminds me of Axe, the early church who shared all things in common and no one lacked anything. I think we look at that today and we think, that wouldn't be possible in our sort of society. And maybe not, but how much can we pursue it? How much can we...

you know, share things instead of buying our own. How much can we live that sort of a lifestyle and see the fruit from it? Well, I think this is a really interesting question that all of us, like if we're really going to be committed to it, we have to explore in our own setting and in our own lives. I don't think there's kind of a one size fits all that churches should be preaching, this is how you say that you've successfully done this.

But I think it's something we should be praying about, we should be open to, we should be exploring. One book that I read, and it is quite a big tome, it's Money, Possessions and Eternity by Randy Alcorn. I think it is over 500 pages. It's very comprehensive. You could probably dip into specific chapters that you might find, you rather than reading it all in one go. But I'm pretty sure I remember him talking in one of those chapters, how he and his family had kind of

sat down together and thought about what do we need of what we earn to sort of live comfortably, you know, but without being excessive. Let's say that no matter what we actually earn, we will only use that amount to live. We'll set boundaries around our expenditure on ourselves and meeting our own needs and then the rest of what we have.

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All belongs to God. think that is, I mean, that's very radical. And I felt extremely challenged hearing that because I know that I'm always breaking those boundaries. I mean, I haven't personally set them, but I I spend way more than I need to spend. I'm always indulging in things that are, you know, are definitely luxuries. I have so much more than I need. Even this bookshelf behind me is just a sign of.

All the excess in my life, I can only read one book at a time. And will I ever read a lot of these books again? I don't know, but I've got them all here, all this stuff. That idea of, okay, if I set limits around what I expected from my life and my standards of living, stuff like that, not just would I feel good about that, but what would that free up? What would that enable me to do? Who would that enable me to bless if I didn't see all that extra stuff as mine, but as actually

gods slash the communities slash, you know, if I looked around my neighborhood and said, where is this actually needed? Way more than it's needed in here. I mean, it would make a huge difference. But even as I'm saying that I'm feeling resistance in myself because it's so radical and I know that I have, you know, a husband who I'd have to agree all these things with, have to conclude this together.

So yeah, it's not easy, but I do think we've got a responsibility with what we've been given. Agreed. Yeah, it reminds me of Paul's phrase in Philippians, isn't it, about having learned the secret of contentment. I think contentment is such an important thing because unless you're settled to be content with what God has given you and to understand the limits of what you need,

Actually, you're constantly going to be chasing after more. And if you're constantly chasing after more for yourself, you're never going to think that you have enough to be able to give away as well. Yeah. That can actually bring us on to thinking about what challenges does Proverbs have for people who have lack, who don't have enough. And that sounds a bit strange, even saying it. Why would Proverbs be challenging the poor who already

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have challenges enough of their own, but I think in some way it does and I think the rest of scripture at times does as well. But what did you guys think about that? That's a really fascinating question. And I think for me, it made me think, actually there's not one type of the poor within Proverbs, right? I said earlier that often Proverbs puts people into categories for the sake of making a point, but there are many reasons why people experience poverty in Proverbs and certainly we know that's the case here.

There are some challenges that I suppose are given to those who are experiencing poverty due to their own foolishness and their challenges are very different to the challenges to those who are experiencing poverty through injustice. for example, Proverb 10, four to five, lazy hands make for poverty, but diligence hands bring wealth. He who gathers crops in the summer is a prudent son, he who sleeps during harvest is a disgraceful son. That's of course not saying anything like,

If you're experiencing poverty, you must be lazy. But it is saying that for some, is a lack of diligence, a lack of wisdom that can result in negative circumstances. There is a challenge to say, how are each of us being responsible with the things that God has given us and how are we taking seriously the need to be diligent? That of course doesn't cover everyone at all, because there are many who in proverbs as well as today,

are poor because of the injustice that's inflicted on them. Maybe the challenge there is different. Maybe it's actually to trust the God of justice, to not assume certain things about himself or to take matters into your own hands, but to keep trusting in him and trust that he is on your side. Yeah, just on that, I actually was thinking while I was preparing about in the gospels where the disciples are in the temple and they're watching people give.

And there's the lady who comes and puts like a tiny amount of money in the giving box. And Jesus says that woman has given more because she's given out of her, like that's all she had and she gave it. And I think, I mean, I don't think Jesus in that moment was saying, if you're poor, just give everything you have, you know, no matter what. But it's a sign, isn't it, of where that woman's priorities were.

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also the trust that she had in God and in, I guess, the community of the believers. Who would then, because she was part of that community, help to take care of her needs? Perhaps. mean, obviously I'm assuming things because that's not necessarily said that. think Jesus' point at the time is to criticize people who are being very ostentatious in their giving, but really giving out of their plenty, you know, it didn't hurt them at all giving.

So that's the point, that's the overarching teaching there, but I do think that that woman shows a great challenge to people who, or when I say great, I mean, yeah, it is very challenging, isn't it? If you are somebody who feels I have very little, the temptation is to hold on to that with all your might and to be so careful about how you spend it. And there's wisdom in that. But at the same time, where does trusting God and

the community come into it. And I do realize I'm saying that as somebody who's never been in that position. But I think if you were someone who was in that position, so much of Scripture would be really encouraging. when you imagine hearing Jesus say, give to those who ask and don't turn from those who want to borrow. You know, as someone who was in lack, you would feel like,

this kingdom that I'm joining, I'm going to be taken care of by people who love me. And I think that's the way it's meant to be. That's the way that the poor who come are supposed to feel. And that's the way Jesus has set it up. I think, yeah, what you've said makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. And he also says a lot actually about the responsibility of families to look after their relatives and things. You know, there's an intricate web of connections between people in society that should lead to us.

It should lead to giving out of love and care for people who are connected to us in some way. We love them, we care about them, we don't want to see them suffering and we will naturally, out of the abundance that we have, want to share that. I think that's how it's meant to be. And I pray that, you know, that God, you know, like you said, am I looking for opportunities to give?

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Am I looking at other people in that way and thinking, how can I share my blessings with them? So that they feel, they know that they're loved, they know they belong, they know they're taken care of. Because that's reflecting God, isn't it?

think another challenge that I would see in proverbs to someone reading it from a place of lack would be that obviously riches isn't the thing that is amazing and the best thing ever in life. I think it would challenge me to think that, to realize that my financial situation doesn't have to define my happiness and my joy and that my hope isn't bound up in it.

because of the many proverbs that speak to the wealthy in the way of saying, you could get caught in this trap, you could get caught in this, make sure you're doing this, kind of speaks to that to say, this isn't everything. This is not what life is made of, wealth and riches. Yeah, but I think you're right, but it's such an encouraging message to people who don't have a lot and don't ever expect to have a lot, to know that my life is still...

beautiful in God's eyes, purposeful. It's not a failure in any way, shape or form. There's dignity in this and actually if I'm pursuing righteousness more than anything else, that's the best thing. Yeah, that's really good. I think we'll end there. Thank you, Liam, so much for coming and speaking with us about this. is a really good conversation. Obviously, there's so much more that we could say on this, but yeah, I really appreciate it and thanks for the insight. So thank you.

Thank you so much for listening. If you love the podcast, you can leave us a review or a rating. If you have any questions about anything that we've said, we'd love to hear them. You can send them in to biblesociety.org.uk forward slash rooted questions. And we'd love to see those. We will see you again for another episode next week with Stuart Ford, who is the Catholic Engagement Manager at Bible Society. And he's brilliant. And we're so excited to have him on to talk more about Proverbs.

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Thanks for listening to this episode of The Rooted Podcast. To find out more about Bible Society's mission to invite people to discover the Bible for themselves in England, Wales and around the world, visit biblesociety.org.uk.