The Rooted Podcast

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You're listening to the Rooted Podcast from Bible Society. In each series we take a closer look at a theme or book of the Bible and explore its relevance in our lives today. This is our series on the parables.

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Hello and welcome back to Rooted Podcast. I'm Noelle and I'm joined again by Mark and Esther. And we're here for the second episode of the parables series. So today we're going to take another bit of a deep dive into some parables that we find in the Gospels. We're following along with the structure of the parables Rooted Journal, which has recently been released. And the first part really of the journal is looking at parables that focus on the nature of God's kingdom.

And so we're going to look at some parables that focus on that today and just see what we can draw from them. And we wanted to start out just sort of talking a bit about what we mean when we're talking about the nature of God's kingdom and parables that focus on that. And really something that we wanted to focus on in the journal was the fact that Jesus was using parables to tell people about His kingdom that was now at hand, that had arrived, and what He meant by that and what it looked like and what it meant to live in that kingdom.

In Jesus' day, the Israelites were being ruled by the Roman Empire. They had been promised a Messiah by the prophets, and many of them were awaiting this Messiah who was going to come and rebel against Rome and save them and free them from oppression. You can kind of imagine that the Israelites at that time were expecting something. Then Jesus shows up, who's sort of a traveling poor rabbi who's healing the sick.

And it just would have totally gone against what they were expecting. And so, I think something that these parables do when we say that they're revealing the nature of God's kingdom is that they were really surprising for people at that time. They were expecting a certain kind of kingdom. And instead, Jesus said, well, the kingdom is like a mustard seed. It's the small thing. And right now, it doesn't look like it's going to be very influential. It doesn't look like it's much. But really, it's going to change everything.

And so we want to look at some of those parables today and kind of bring ourselves into that time. And Mark said this last episode, and I thought it was really good, but we want to defamiliarize ourselves with the parables and think, well, what would it have been like to hear this parable at that time when Jesus said it for the first time? How shocking and surprising would this have been? We want to kind of look at them from that lens. So that's what we're going to look at today.

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Why do you guys think that this was such a big theme in some of Jesus' parables? I think often, like when we're hearing the parables in church or, you when we're reading the Bible, something I tend to do is I'm comparing like the value system of the world or the nature of the world with the nature of God's kingdom. So quite often, I guess I'm thinking like, yeah, God's kingdom is very countercultural. And that's kind of the...

In looking through my modern lens as someone growing up in England, that's what I tend to be looking at. And I think I can often forget that actually this was counter-cultural or it was counter to the expectations, like you said, Noel, of the Jewish people at the time, that they were expecting this Messiah to come, God's kingdom to come, all of the oppressors to be wiped out, for them to have power and authority that they were lacking.

There was this sort of victory that they were expecting. And then the reality is Jesus comes as the Messiah and the kingdom of God, there's kind of a now and a not yet to it because he's here, he's inaugurated this kingdom. God's kingdom is present in his kind of teachings and in his actions, like you mentioned healing the sick and other things that he was doing. But it's not the great victory that people were

perhaps hoping for. So then that leads people to doubt, doesn't it? Is Jesus really the Messiah? Is this really the coming of the kingdom? So I think that there's such an emphasis in Jesus' teaching, because he's actually teaching to this Jewish audience that would have been waiting for, hoping for, needing to see the evidence of the kingdom. He's trying to say, okay, you thought it was that, but this is what the kingdom of God is really like.

And it may look small and weak, but actually it's not. It's going to be, you mentioned the mustard seed, something that's small and tiny can grow into this tree that spreads and covers a huge area. So I think that's one of the reasons why it is such a massive theme. think one of the things that comes out in one or two the parables that we're going to look at today is the

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The sort of interior nature of it as well, I it does have obviously, I think we might see it has all sorts of implications for wider society. It's not just a personal and private thing, but the kingdom of God seems to start in people's hearts. It's about how we respond to God. Jesus says something, well, are we going to believe it? Are we going to act on it or not? And that's where the rubber hits the road in terms of the kingdom.

So the kingdom of God is not a political entity in the same way that the Empire of Rome was, for instance. It's a different sort of thing altogether. And I think that thing about personal response is really significant when we come to try and understand it. Yeah, and it's not just personal response, but it's even your ability to be able to see God at work in the world, because all of the signs could be there.

couldn't they, like they are when Jesus is doing the things that he's doing, but people didn't see that that was the kingdom of God. So yeah, there's the response that's required. But even for us today to be able to look around us and not just be totally discouraged when we see bad things happening, is to be able to see even then, well, actually there's the fruit of God's kingdom, there's God at work. So yeah, I think it's a thing of, it's a response, but it's also a seeing.

of reality. Yeah, I think the Kingdom of God seems to be something that sort of sits alongside worldly kingdoms or kind of permeates worldly kingdoms. So, it's not completely separate from them, but it's certainly not the same as them. And the Kingdom of God is certainly not the same as the church either. And the Kingdom of God is, it exists when God's will is done.

It exists when everything is right and relationships are right and people are whole in body, mind and spirit, whether it's justice and so on and so forth. And people have, you know, that personal connection with God and that personal commitment to God. And that changes how we live and how we live changes the world. It's not a straightforward idea, is it, Kingdom of God? Is that what's going on there? Yes.

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The first parable that we want to look at that is looking at the nature of God's kingdom is the parable of the sower. So one of the most famous parables really. And that's found in Matthew chapter 13. Mark, would you maybe just summarize the parable for us? yeah, what is this parable? Yeah, fine. It's such a simple one really, but it's got so many different levels of meaning to it, I think.

So the farmer goes out to sow his seed and he would have been sowing his seed by hand and some of it falls on the rocky places and it is scorched by the sun because it's got no depth to it. Some of it falls among thorns which choke the plants. Some of it is on the path and the birds come and eat it. And then some of it falls on the good soil where it produces a crop 160 or 30 times what was

sown, which was, you know, any of these would have been an amazing rate of return on the amount of grain that was actually sown. And this doesn't very often happen at all, but Jesus actually explains what the parable means. And he says when anyone hears the message about the kingdom and doesn't understand it, the evil one snatches away what was sown in his heart. That's the seed that falls along the path. The rocky place is that somebody who receives the word.

receives it with joy but has no root and then persecution comes and he falls away. The one who receives the seed that fell among thorns, well that's the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth, choke it, make it unfruitful. And then there's the seed that falls on good soil and that's the one who hears the word and understands it and produces this amazing crop. So that is basically the story.

So why don't we just start in looking at the context of this parable? Who is Jesus speaking to when He tells it? I guess in a way, if we look at the fact that He then explains the parable, there are sort of two contexts really, who He's talking to when He tells the parable and then when He explains the parable. when He tells the parable first, it's to these large crowds which have gathered around Him. In fact, there are so many

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crowds that he has to get out into a boat and push off a little bit from the shore so that he can't be crowded. So these are people who are really anxious to hear what he says, but it's not just his inner circle, these are the crowds in general. And then he explains the parable to his disciples a little bit later. Yeah, so that's who Jesus is speaking to in this parable. There's a crowd of people and they're listening to him.

So given that he's speaking to sort of this large crowd who are eager to listen, what is it that he wants to tell them about the kingdom? What is he trying to get across about the kingdom in this parable, do you guys think? know, just thinking about what Mark said about de-familiarizing ourselves with the gospel. Like I've heard so many sermons on this, but my mind just instantly goes to, you start going through that register of what you've heard about what this means. And I mean,

Often there'll be the focusing on the seed of the kingdom, I guess, the gospel, how liberally it's sown and that it's for everybody. And then I guess the second thing is to think, well, often there's that question, what kind of soil are you? What kind of response will you give and what will the fruit be in your life? Yeah, I wonder if you've heard other interpretations of it or what leaps out to you? Yeah, I guess I was thinking

when we were preparing for this about what Chantel actually wrote in the journal about this parable, but she was talking about how generous the sewer was and she was kind of focusing on the sewer, which I don't think I had done before reading that. I think that was my first time thinking about that. I feel if I was sewing, I would be very careful as to where I laid it and I would only lay seed where I knew that it was going to produce something or else it's...

would be quite inefficient, it would be seen as a waste. And I think me myself, I tend to be quite an efficient person. I don't like inefficiency, it bothers me. But I actually think that as I look at Jesus and his life and the way that he acted in general, efficiency wasn't Jesus' number one priority. He's not always trying to get things done. He's not trying to get things done quickly.

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He's not trying to get everyone saved. He's not constantly evangelizing. Yeah, I don't know. So guess I was thinking that's been the thing that maybe I've thought about the most recently as we've been preparing for this is that the nature of this sower is quite different to what I would expect a good sower to be. mean, God's salvation plan, if you go back to the big Bible story, you could say that it's very inefficient, couldn't you?

know, God chooses this people and he gives them the law and all of that, and he walks with them even though they constantly reject him and turn away and all of that. And just his patience in his salvation plan, the way that he sows so liberally these opportunities. you know, even when you think about, like, when God first speaks to Abraham, he doesn't just say that it's going to be his descendants that are blessed, but it's going to be

all nations in the whole world will be blessed through them. And I guess that taps into the parable of the sower as well, if we're thinking about the audience, who probably would have been mostly Jewish. And when they were thinking about who the Messiah was coming for and what that meant, they were probably mostly thinking of themselves as a people, you know, the Jewish Messiah. But this seed, you know, maybe it even starts to tap into that idea, that blessing for

everybody. One of the things that struck me about it was if we're thinking about the parable as being a parable of the kingdom of God, and I think it does make sense to think of it as the parable of the soil, not just the parable of the sower, because it seems to focus on the different kinds of soil. And if we're thinking about it as a parable of the kingdom, I think it's just how difficult and how unlikely it is.

that the seed will fall into good soil. There's so much that can go wrong. Not everybody is sort of receptive. Some people are shallow, you know, and being a Christian is quite demanding sometimes. So the seed's not going to grow. Or, you know, we've all got cares and concerns, haven't we? That's another thing. And the seed is choked by cares and concerns, or it falls on the path.

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I remember hearing a sermon where somebody said, what makes a path? Well, the path is made by somebody walking on it, walking a particular route. And so the ground is made hard by other people's feet. And, you know, probably lots and lots of people have had things happen to them. They've been put off any kind of faith by what they've seen in other people's lives, you know, people who have not been good witnesses.

And so the good soil, well, say it's a quarter of the total landscape, that's quite a challenging thing, isn't it really? But isn't it interesting though as well? If you think about an actual farmer sowing seed in a field, obviously they should have done a whole bunch of prep to the soil before they even sow the seed to maximize the chances of that seed.

finding a hospitable landing spot and growing. I think because Jesus is speaking to people and yeah, he's kind of asking them, what kind of soil are you? But I feel like it's not because there's space for a response here. And he does tackle that thing about response in the parable itself. But even if you think, well, right now, this, kingdom seed is being sown in my life.

I may not have done very good soil prep, but my life, you know, I have more probably than just this one season of sowing, you know, because every year that field will be, you know, recultivated, reseeded. And I think there is an urgency to respond to the message of the kingdom. I think there's a kindness from Jesus here as well in kind of saying, what kind of soil are you? What kind of soil do you want to be? Like, do you want to be in this kingdom of God?

Or are you going to have a hard heart or allow yourself to have this snatched away from you? Well, on the same vein of what you were saying earlier about the different kinds of soil and the fact that the farmer sows regardless of the soil and he doesn't prep it beforehand. I always think it's interesting how Jesus treats his disciples because it seems to be that the disciples don't necessarily believe in Jesus for a while. have you seen, I think it's John

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It's maybe John 16 or 17 at the end of the chapter, there's a verse that says, finally the disciples believed, or and then the disciples believed, and you're kind of thinking, it took them all that time. Like, they're following this man around and like they've just decided to believe in him. But actually it's amazing because it means that Jesus accepted them before they even believed that he was truly the Messiah. And it makes me think of like, how often do we do that basically?

Do we accept people and do we let them follow Jesus or follow us as we follow Christ before they believe? Or is it sort of a thing of like, if you want to come to our church or if you want to be friends with us, you've got to believe this first. Because it seems that Jesus was willing to throw seed on people who didn't believe yet.

I think that's really interesting actually, and I just thought of a couple of things when you were talking. One is that when we think about this idea of the soil, maybe one of the things that we should remember is that God is a gardener, know, God is a cultivator. And the very first image that we have in Genesis of God is somebody who planted a garden. And you know, if you plant a garden, you cultivate the soil.

So I was thinking that this is quite a depressing parable in some ways, isn't it? Because you don't usually get much choice in terms of what sort of person you are, what soil you are. And if you're basically hard or shallow or whatever, then that's that. Too bad, the seed isn't going to grow. But God is a gardener and God can cultivate the unpromising ground. So I think that's one thing.

But I did think it was really interesting, what you were saying about what we require of somebody before we'll let them be part of us and how Jesus sort of walked with people and just accepted that not everybody was going to be in their final state at a particular point on the journey. I can't remember the name of person in question, sociologist in question, but there are three things about faith. There's believe, belong,

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and behave. And that's the sort of classic approach that an evangelical might take. You preach the gospel to somebody, they believe, they join the church, then they learn how to behave. But actually, in the real world, it's not like that. Sometimes people are drawn to a church fellowship and they belong and they learn habits of behavior and then they find that they believe.

I suppose you could take all sorts of combinations of the belief, belong, behave thing, but it's not necessarily going to be in what you might call the right order. And think that's what you're identifying about what Jesus said. Well, and I mean, even we can see that this is true. Like, however long you've been a Christian, like I've hopefully grown and changed my behavior and lots of things.

Over the course of the journey of my faith, it wasn't just that I transformed into exactly as I am now, the moment I believed. I've had so many things to grapple with. I mean, not long after the parable of the sower, there's this parable of the weeds, where basically an enemy comes and sows weeds among the field. So you've got this idea of like, well, there's actively something there trying to choke the crop.

And I've definitely felt choked at times in my life, but God doesn't just pull up the weeds and the plant that they're trying to choke at the same time. He lets them grow together because then he can still save the thing that, you know, the crop that's still good. And I feel like God, you you were saying it sort of could be read in a slightly depressing way, but it ends on that note of the harvest, doesn't it? This incredible harvest, a really good one.

And I think even if we felt at various points that we're a struggling crop, we're struggling part of the crop, you know, that doesn't mean that we won't eventually be part of that harvest. That's good. Another parable that we wanted to have a look at that comes just after the parable of the weeds and the sower actually is the parable of the mustard seed. So we're still in sort of a lot of agricultural.

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parable talk, which makes sense. I'll just read it quickly. It's very short. He told them another parable. Again, I can imagine hearing Jesus say this and I don't think that I would get it, really.

right, definitely not right off the bat. it is interesting because I think I'd be thinking about it for days and days afterwards. I can imagine going, what on earth was he talking about and trying to figure it out, which I like that about it. You have to sort of ruminate on it. the other thing is that Jesus isn't the first person in the Bible to use the image of trees with birds nesting in them.

to illustrate great nations or kingdoms because the image is there in Ezekiel chapter 17 and it's also there in Daniel chapter four. But these are huge trees, you know, these are cedars of Lebanon and Jesus chooses a different image. He chooses a mustard seed. and, know, it becomes a tree of sorts, but it's basically a big shrub or bush. So, he is saying something slightly different, I think, isn't he?

I mean, you could look at it so many different ways. So still thinking on that theme of like people's expectations about the kingdom and who would be in the kingdom versus reality. Because if you think about, you know, Jesus' followers, they were made up of all kinds of people that were like the least of society. You know, you have widows, orphans, servants, you have known sinners, you know, that he invites into this kingdom.

And that looks pretty feeble. It's not like David's band of mighty men, is it, who go around storming and winning conflicts. It looks feeble. It looks small. How is this thing going to grow into something that lasts? I think there's something in the idea of like, it doesn't need to be this show of strength to spread everywhere and to have this powerful impact. So I think this parable sort of partly speaks into that expectation.

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You mentioned Daniel chapter four with the image of the tree, but I was also thinking like Daniel chapter two with the image of this tiny stone that goes and hits the foot of the statue. All these kingdoms in the world, they crumble and this tiny stone out of that grows into an everlasting kingdom, this huge rock. And it's maybe it's that same idea that something small and something feeble can yet

becomes something huge and powerful and pervasive? Well, you mentioned the word pervasive as well. One of the books I was looking at said, well, we don't actually know what botanically the mustard seed was that Jesus was talking about because there are a couple of different candidates. One of them is the Brassica nigra, which is a black mustard, which seems to fit the bill in some ways. But there's another possibility.

which is Salvadora persica, which is also a mustard, but it's an invasive plant. So it spreads and, you know, once it goes to seed, there's a Roman writer Pliny who refers to this plant and says, well, you can't get rid of it once it invades your garden. And I thought that was quite interesting, actually, just as an image of the kingdom of God, something that spreads.

that once it's there, it's really disruptive. Well, I mean, that certainly fits with the verse that directly follows that, that talks about the kingdom of heaven is the leaven. It's like the leaven or the yeast that a woman took and hid. She hid it in three measures of flour till it was all leavened. And then you can't separate the leaven from the flour. That bread will be affected by the yeast. I think that's interesting because if we are thinking about the kingdom

in this context of the mustard seed. And let's say it is that invasive sort of plant, which I do think that in Jesus's time, his movement was quite disruptive, wasn't it? And it was quite invasive. So I do think that that fits the bill. Thinking about today, do we feel that it is doing the same thing? Do we feel that it's an invasive, something that's really invading our culture?

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I don't know, I think that's a bit of a challenge. Obviously it has invaded the world. like, the Bible is the bestselling book. Everyone knows about Christianity. But is the truth of the kingdom of God, has that invaded our churches? Has it invaded us as Christians? Has it invaded our society? Yeah, that's tricky, isn't it? And I think

But I think this does kind of go with the image that Jesus is putting forward really, that it's sort of inconsistent in some ways. I mean, in some areas you can really see, yes, this is a sign of the kingdom of God. In other ways you think, my goodness, society in general has got a long way to go before we can actually say that the kingdom of God is realized in this place.

But I think that's kind of normal. I think it's probably always been like that. For instance, I've been reading quite a bit, it's just been popping up on the news in various places about workplace cultures and how some workplace cultures are absolutely toxic and, you know, dreadful things happen and people just think that's normal. And then I was thinking and

hope listeners don't just think I'm advertising Bible Society here, but I'm thinking about the sort of workplace culture that we have at Bible Society, where people are challenged to do their best, but where the ethos is that people speak respectfully to each other and about each other. You know, I've never heard any sort of backbiting or criticism and, you know, it's not like people are sort of scrambling over each other to get to the top or anything like that.

And I think we really try to behave in a way which is suitable for a Christian organization. And I think that we can kind of actualize a bit of the kingdom of God in our workplace, how we work together. And I think if we leave and if we go to a different organization, then we're faced with the challenge of taking that with us.

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know, can we be the leaven, to use a slightly different illustration from Jesus, can we be the leaven in that situation which gradually changes a workplace culture? And maybe we rise in the organization, maybe we have more influence and can we bring something of what we've learned, maybe here, maybe somewhere else, into that new workplace? I think it's encouraging because

so often like, we tend to go to the macro idea, don't we, of like, know, Acts 1, 8, you'll receive power from the Holy Spirit and you'll spread the gospel here to the whole world. And I kind of connect that quite often in an evangelistic way, you the Great Commission with this idea of being like a mustard seed and spreading everything everywhere. But I think it's so encouraging to think about this in a more micro way as well, and to see my own kind of

You know, I am carrying with me the seeds of the kingdom wherever I go. I'm carrying that faith with me and that's no small thing because it can have an impact in my relationships, in my work, in everything. that, you know, that can sometimes, even if it seems small or you think that, you know, who am I, you know, who really cares what I say and do, but people do, it affects everyone you interact with. And that's incredible.

I'll give you an example of something which I just think illustrates this thing about the kingdom of God. But this is a friend of mine who was in a supermarket at the coffee counter and a couple of chaps talking, just sitting next to her. One asked the other how his wife was and the answer was, well, she died yesterday. And my friend, you she didn't know them or anything, but she thought, well, I just can't leave that there. And so she went and

and just bought a plant and just came back and gave it to this chap whose wife had died and said, well, sorry, you don't know me, but I overheard what you were saying. I just wanted to give you something. And he was very grateful. And as a result of that, they struck up a real friendship and she was able to support him. And he became ill and died as well. And she was able to visit him and

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and it started a little friendship group. But you know, it started with that impulse of generosity towards somebody. And you know, it's not a conversion story or anything like that, but I think it's an example of somebody acting out of kindness and generosity and changing somebody's life in, you know, in small ways maybe, but it was a genuine moment of grace, I think.

The last parable we wanted to discuss is the parable of the growing seed. This is in Mark 4, verse 26 to 29. I'll just read it quickly. He also said,

All by itself, the soil produces grain, first the stalk, then the head, then the full kernel in the head. As soon as the grain is ripe, he puts the sickle to it because the harvest has come." This is similar, but takes a different approach. It seems to be talking more about emphasizing God's part of the seed growing that we play a part, but that he plays a part, really.

comes in the Gospel of Mark, you've just had that before the parable of the growing seed. There's the parable of the sower at beginning of that chapter. And then after that, in Mark, that's where you've got the mustard seed coming in. So it is all part of this same conversation. And in a way, it's sort of difficult when you read them together, because it's like mixing metaphors in a certain way. Because I guess you tend to think of the sower as being

God, guess, sowing the gospel or sharing the gospel. here, God clearly isn't the farmer in this one. It's kind of we are. And then what we can't see beneath the ground, like God is actually orchestrating that. He's the one making that seed grow. But I do love that emphasis on the fact that it isn't all down to us. You know, it's not like if the kingdom, if we perceive that the kingdom isn't growing,

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A, it doesn't mean that we're not doing what we're supposed to be doing, although I'm sure we've all felt challenged on that. But B, it doesn't mean that God isn't working. He is always working and His kingdom is going to prevail, no matter the workers in the field. So we can't fail really.

It reminded me of the famous story of William Carey, who was a great Baptist hero, first of the modern missionaries really. He preached what came to be known as his Deathless Sermon, and he came up with this brilliant line which was, Attempt great things for God and expect great things from God.

there's such a wonderful balance there that we don't stop working just because we know that God is there. We attempt great things for Him, but at the same time we expect great things from Him because ultimately He's the one who makes the seed grow. He's the one who makes things happen. And maybe there's something of that in this parable, I think. Yeah, and actually just being ready for the harvest, expecting the harvest and being ready for it.

Yeah, it reminded me of this Psalm, Psalm 127. It also reminds me of that proverb, Proverbs 21-31. The horse is prepared for the day of battle, but safety is from the Lord.

Which I think is interesting. I don't know, two verses I thought of that kind of have to do with this sort of idea that we go so far, but then the Lord really is the one who does the rest. And that can be difficult a lot of the time, I think, because when you work to do something, especially for God, you want to see the benefits of it and you want to see them quickly. Like, I think of people at church that I talk to or that when you're trying to help someone.

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It's really hard to have to wait for God to do what only He can do. And a lot of times you want to be the person to help someone and you want to be the person to see that to fruition. But actually, there's only so much that you can do. And you have to be patient. I actually find that really difficult in real life. Isn't it interesting that that's a theme which seems to have been running through the whole of the conversation that we've had?

you know, God's generosity and God's patience and, you know, the untidiness of the kingdom of God. And it's not something that you can necessarily control. It's just something that happens and, you know, we can do a certain amount, but we can't do everything. What you've just said, that just seems to be a brilliant example of it actually.

It's just where we are. It's just what happens. It's just what the kingdom is. I do think there's just a huge message in all of our discussion, all of the things that we've looked at, all of the examples of parables. You know, the big thing that I take from it is not to be discouraged. You know, it makes me think of John the Baptist. You know, he came, he was that man in the wilderness preparing the way for Jesus, telling people the kingdom of God is at hand, repent, be baptized, receive forgiveness.

it's happening, it's at hand. then you get, I think it's in Matthew chapter 11, he's in jail and he's starting to be like, well, this, you know, he's feeling discouraged. And he sends some of his followers to Jesus and they say, look, are you the Messiah or should we expect someone else? You know, because we're not seeing the results, we're not seeing what we were expecting to see. And Jesus kind of sends word back to him saying like,

tell John what you're seeing and hearing. You know, the good news is preach, the captives of greed people are healed. This is the fruit of the kingdom, the proof that it's at hand. And I think sometimes that's the challenge for us, isn't it? It's like, just like with your friend, that you might really want to be the one to help them and you might want to see the full fruit that you're praying for and hoping for them in Christ. But you might not see or that you might just see some tiny shoots.

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And the rest of it, you kind of have to trust God to do that work. So I think that is, yeah, it's a challenge, it's an encouragement. And yeah, it reminds us to be patient and trust in God.

Yeah, that's really good. Really good. Thank you so much for listening and we are going to be back next week for another episode on the parables. We have a special guest with us. Leonie has been on the podcast before, if you remember, and she's coming back on again next week to speak with Mark and Esther about the parables. So we're looking forward to that. If you love the podcast, please do give us a rating.

a review, we have a survey you can fill out if you want to tell us about how we think we can make it better. We really appreciate all of that feedback. So thanks so much for being here and we will see you next week.