The Rooted Podcast

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You're listening to The Rooted Podcast from Bible Society, a Christian organization that invites people to discover the life -giving power of the Bible. In each series, we dig deeper into a theme or book of the Bible and explore its message for us today. This is series one, Sermon on the Mount. Welcome back to the sixth episode of The Rooted Podcast. I'm here again with Mark and Esther. We're really excited to continue on.

talking about the Sermon on the Mount. We are here now in chapter seven. So today we're going to look at verse 13, talking about narrow and wide gates, all the way through, talking about false prophets and fruit. And then we're going to end with a little bit on Jesus's parable, which kind of wraps up the Sermon on the Mount, the two house builders. Esther, Mark, how are you guys today? How are you feeling? Feeling good.

Yeah, and I've been really looking forward to this. Yeah, let's crack on. I'm just going to read verses 13 and 14 and we'll start the discussion on the narrow and wide gates.

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It's an interesting image that Jesus is giving here for us, and it's quite simple when it's read, but I think it's actually interpreted lots of different ways people look at this, just to begin thinking about it. In my Bible here, it says, the way is broad that leads to destruction, and the way is narrow that leads to life. But I was reading in the Youth Bible, actually, Bible Society's Youth Bible. And in that translation, it says,

the gate to hell is wide and it says the gate to life is narrow. So I guess there's an interesting conversation around this passage specifically thinking about, is Jesus talking about a prediction of future judgment here? Is he talking about heaven and hell? Or could he be talking about maybe life here and now on the earth, living in a place of destruction or a place of life? What do you guys think? That's a great question. The, um,

The Bible Society's Youth Bible is actually the Good News Bible, which is what I've got here. And as you say, it says, the gate to hell is wide and the road that leads to it is easy. So it uses the word hell. I looked at a couple of other translations and they tend to use the word destruction. So I look back at the Greek New Testament. The word is apolia, which means destruction. So that has been interpreted.

And, you know, to a certain extent, all translations have a bit of interpretation in them. But the translators of the Good News Bible have interpreted that as meaning future destruction, for which they've used hell as a kind of shorthand. I am not a translation expert. My Greek is a bit rudimentary, but I wonder if that is the most helpful way.

to translate it? No, I'm just going to go out on a limb here and I'm going to say I don't think that's the most helpful way to translate it because hell, it kind of brings all sorts of other associations with it. It opens up a whole different theological landscape, arena, whatever you call it. So I think we should be talking about destruction, actually. Yeah, I think so too. And I think it's more appropriate to be thinking that Jesus would be talking about

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life here on earth, because He's in the middle of giving us teachings of how we should live on the earth. It makes sense that He would say, if you follow these ways, which are the narrow ways, you will live a life on earth that is full of life. I mean, it's easy for us to see the way of destruction. You can just look around and you can see it. You can see the ways of life that are really easy to live, and they go against everything that Jesus has just been teaching.

But if we were to follow all the things he's been teaching, it's narrow, but it leads to life here. So, yeah, I agree. I think it's much more, it makes more sense that Jesus would be talking about life here on earth. I mean, I'm not sure that I like the translation of destruction into that word hell in the Good News Bible. I agree with what you've said there. But I think perhaps we're...

taking those as the most important words in that passage when I think what Jesus is actually emphasizing more than destruction and life here is the choice that we all have to make. He's pointing us to the fact that, okay, you've heard all of this teaching from me, now what? What are you going to do with it? How are you going to apply it? You know, this imagery of the gate, Jesus actually in the Gospel of John, chapter 10 verses

seven to ten, he describes himself as the gate. He says, very truly, I tell you, I'm the gate for the sheep. All who have come before me are thieves and robbers. I am the gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved. So I think we have to read this statement, look at this image that he's given here in that light. Do you accept me? Do you follow me? Are you going to obey me?

love me, serve me wholeheartedly, or are you not?" Yeah, I like it too that there's an emphasis on it being a way and not a kind of a destination or a place that we're going with. This is a practice, it's a way of life and something that we're going to be continually coming back to and returning to. The fact that Jesus himself says that I am the way. I think there's something quite comforting in that, that this is all a practice. It's something that he wants us to apply to our lives daily.

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this is a very rich image, isn't it? There's a lot in there. And you can imagine, say, a city gate when you've got the broad entrance, which is for carts and carriages and things like that. And, you know, that's what most people would use because there are a lot of people coming in and out. And at the side, you've got a small gate, which after the city gates were closed at night, they might open that one to let people in.

you know, that wouldn't have got so much traffic. It was just harder to navigate as it were. So it is very visual in that sense. But it made me think just of how we control or do not control our instincts and our desires. And I think most people are probably not very good at this.

And so you have this contrast between people who are committed to doing the difficult things and people who just, you know, can't be bothered, just do what they want, go with the flow. And I think in our Christian terms, I think you've got more people who will just do what they want.

than people who are going to be heart and soul committed to doing the difficult things and following Jesus. And I think that's true within the church as well as outside the church, actually. And then I was thinking too about just the fact that if we're going to achieve a long -term goal, we have to deny ourselves short -term.

pleasures and benefits. The people who really achieve things in life don't go home from work and sort of slump in front of Netflix for the evening. Oh no. Now I know I'm not successful Mark. Well I speak as a serial offender so you know. I don't even have Netflix but I do. You know what I mean. You know what I mean. I do.

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And there's something about living a disciplined life and having our eyes fixed on the goal and, you know, your mates are off doing whatever they're doing, but you are, you have chosen your path. You're going to achieve your goal. You will dedicate yourself to doing something which is hard. This hard way, this narrow road.

means you can't take everything you'd necessarily want to take with you. There might be things you have to leave behind. Yeah, you have to make sacrifices, but the destination or what you get going along that road is worth it. It's worth them more than anything else. I like the idea too of what you've said, Mark, that we don't want to excuse ourselves from this by saying,

Oh, we're Christians, and so we're following the way. So we're following the narrow way because I've accepted Jesus and I believe in Him. Well, not necessarily, right? I could believe in Him and I could still be following my own way very easily, couldn't I? But actually, a lot of the time, the correction that Jesus spoke, He was speaking to the people who were the religious leaders of the time, right, and the ones who thought that they had it down and were doing the right things.

So yeah, it's almost like we are saved, but then there's still a higher way and it is this way of following Jesus. But almost this thing of like, you could still be choosing the not narrow way and believing in Jesus. And you could be living a different way, couldn't you be? So yeah, it's compelling, convicting. So next we've got verses 15 through to 23, the next section. Esther, do you want to read that for us?

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They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they're ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit.

is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit, you will recognize them." Yeah, good. I said through to verse 23, but you're right, Esther, that's where we want to stop. Thinking about false prophets, maybe there's a bit of sensitivity around this, or even a bit of fear where people, you know, there are lots of denominations in churches that believe in prophecy for today, that all Christians can prophesy.

or some believe that there are just people who are the prophets today who prophesy. But there is this thing surrounding this, or there can be, of what is a false prophet. And Jesus warns us against them, doesn't he? So I guess some of the questions here are what do we think a false prophet is based on what Jesus has said here? And I guess, yeah, what is our response to this, or how do we live according to what Jesus has said here?

My mind went straight to church leaders, actually, so not so much people who are prophesying in the sense of telling the future or bringing the message or something like that, because he seems to be talking about not just about people who are getting it wrong, but about people who are really bad people. You know, inwardly they are ravening wolves, so they look sort of meek and mild and respectable and upright and upstanding.

on the surface and inside there is this evil, this destructiveness. And I took him to mean, I'm afraid the sort of leaders that we hear about all too often nowadays, the Christian leaders who are caught out, they're revealed as abusers of different kinds, people who are

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you know, financially corrupt or sexually corrupt or who abuse their power in different ways. I thought about the book of the Bible, it's very short, to John and it's a letter that John is writing to a church where there's a concern about false teaching. So he's writing to them about how can they spot this. So this sort of like really explores what does this look like. So it's something about do

if someone's not teaching that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and if someone is saying, oh, I've got an advance on what Christ taught, I've had further revelation from God, and they're telling you this other stuff, that's a sign that it's false teaching. Yeah, I agree. That element of doctrinal truthfulness is really important. I don't think we can do without that. Just putting the other or

another angle on that. I think somebody can be really, you know, quite doctrinally sound and express themselves and teach in ways which are actually really unhealthy and unhelpful. I mean, for instance, I am an evangelical. I, you know, I want people to be converted and to turn and follow Jesus themselves. But

If somebody goes on and on and on in every sermon about hell and judgment, that's not going to be fruitful and it's not going to be helpful. It's hard to call them a false prophet, but nevertheless, they are behaving in a way which lends itself to people thinking of God as this sort of angry, judgmental person, and they're not actually stressing the love of God. So,

what is, you know, what may not be incorrect turns out to be something that grows bad fruit instead of good fruit. Yeah, I think that's right. I think, because I think too, when I think about this, the message you're right can be, can be correct, but what is the heart behind the message that you're giving? So if you think about prophets in the Old Testament, they were coming,

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they were speaking truth to power, right? So they were coming and they were coming to the old priests and kings and they were saying, you think you've got it right, but actually you've forgotten the cause of the oppressed or you've done this thing. So I think what you're saying, Mark, is right, is that a false prophet perhaps could be someone who comes and speaks truth, but it's just to prop up people that are in power. Let's say I'm speaking at my church and I've got a message that I know.

is going to give itching ears what they want to hear. And I come and I say it and I speak it and everyone stands up and they applaud me and they clap and it's all really good and then everyone goes home. But I think that that can become really dangerous. I think I'm getting into false profit territory right there because I'm just saying a message that I know is going to be accepted by my audience and I'm going to be cheered on for that.

I think that's the kind of thing that Jesus is warning about because it's all about power when it comes to that. So I think you're right, Mark, what you were saying about you can have a message, but why are you giving that message? And is it truth? Well, I mean, truth is not dependent on how people respond to it. Some people love to hear the truth and some people hate to hear the truth because it goes against what they want to do. So truth, it's not so much how people respond.

But what you were saying, Mark, about how we might give a message of truth in an unloving way, well, that clearly isn't in keeping with the fruits of the Spirit, which is what this passage tells us to look for. You know, what are the fruits of the Spirit? Love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self -control. So if the way, if we've got the truth bit right, but we're not being loving and we're not

you know, seeking joy, peace and all of those other things, then there's still something off. For me, it really illustrates the responsibility that lies on a church leader, actually. I mean, certainly if I am preparing a sermon, even after all these years, I feel such a responsibility on myself to be, you know, to kind of take myself out of the...

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I mean, obviously you speak from the heart and all that sort of thing, but I can't bring my own prejudices into it. I can't bring my own, you know, my own feelings even about what a congregation needs to hear. So I think there's a huge responsibility on us to act with integrity when it comes to these things. But there's also the responsibility on us in the congregation.

in these days where you can go and listen to all kinds of people on YouTube and podcasts and things to be discerning about what we're listening to. And this is why there's nothing really simple about this. It's easy to imagine that anybody who doesn't say what you think is right or who doesn't toe a particular party line is a false prophet. So a false prophet ends up being anybody that you disagree with.

And that's not healthy either, I think. And I think, I mean, I absolutely agree with you Esther, as well as there being a responsibility for the teacher, for the preacher, there is also a responsibility for the congregation too. But part of that responsibility is to, you know, to have a sense of openness and trust and a receptiveness so that

if somebody is saying something that might not have occurred to them before, they're making them see things in a different way, then the attitude just isn't automatic rejection. But the attitude is, well, you know, maybe this person is saying something that I need to hear, maybe God is speaking through this person, maybe I'm being taught something and my mind and my heart is expanding in a way that I need to consider.

Having discernment isn't about being suspicious about everything, but it's just weighing everything, isn't it? It's just a bit more of a neutral term. Yeah. I think it's interesting too, the conversation around fruit, because I think it's not always the easiest for us to discern what is good fruit. What do we think? So I think a lot of the times I've heard different leaders that I've been around think that good fruit means that their church is filled. Good fruit means that they have a big following.

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And I'm not saying that any of those aren't necessarily good fruit, but I'd be interested to know what you guys think about this. Because I think this is important. If Jesus is saying, you'll know whether someone is genuine here by their fruit. And Esther, you've touched on this. You've said the fruits of the Spirit. So maybe we're saying, what's the fruit that's coming out of their life? But if we're talking about actions and fruit that comes from people's actions, then what is the fruit that we're talking about?

Do you mind if I just respond to what you were saying about churches and when people are like, oh, we've got so many people in our church, people are coming, we must be doing something right, that kind of thinking. It just instantly makes me think of the letters to the churches at the beginning of Revelation in chapter three, like to the church in Sardis, I know your works, you have the reputation of being alive, but you're dead. Later to the church in Laodicea.

He says, I know your works, you're neither cold nor hot. So it's this idea that a church could look really successful and think we must be doing something right. But maybe the spirit would be saying to them, no, you're dead, spiritually dead, and you think that you're rich, but actually, no, you're not. And just because you've got all these people, that's not the sign that you're following me necessarily. So yeah, completely agree with you there. I think it can be really helpful for a church to just

think together about what good fruit actually looks like. We've got the list in Galatians, but then what does that look like in a particular context? I suppose for me, at the root of it is the idea that people are better because of their faith in God, that they're kinder and more generous and more loving to one another, that they start to flourish. They're not lonely.

they're able to give. You know, there's a whole bunch of stuff actually, which on the face of it sounds fairly obvious, but which in the real world is not obvious at all. But there's something about human flourishing, I think, which is certainly there. So I think a lot of the time fruit is, yeah, what you've said, Mark, but are people actually beginning to follow the way of Jesus as outlined in the Sermon on the Mount? Are they actually changing their lives and ordering in their lives around the things that Jesus did?

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the way that he talked and the things he commanded us to do. We're all on a journey as well, aren't we? There's that kind of process of sanctification. And I think, had you met me as a teenager, you know, I got baptized as a teenager and was very involved in church, but there were many, many things you would have been able to see in my life and think, wow, some work of the spirit needs to be happening there, some sanctification. And I'm certainly not the finished article now, although I hope.

I hope that all through my life I'm going to be growing and becoming more Christ -like and people that meet me now might be like, well, I'm not sure about her. I hope later, I hope to just keep in that process like, yeah, I'm sorry, being able to repent for those places where I fail and grow. Yeah. And this does link back to the teaching again, doesn't it? And the whole false prophets thing, by their fruits you'll know them.

Because if people are teaching things or teaching in ways that make people harsh or make people afraid or which maybe draw people away from the Bible, then that is an indication that their ministry is not really of God. Yeah, that's really good. So we're going to take a break now. Before we do, just as a reminder, if you have any questions, you can send them in to us at biblesociety .org .uk forward slash rooted questions.

and we'll answer as many of those as we can in our Q &A episode at the end of this series. All right, should we go to this last portion here? We've got verses 21 through 23. Mark, could you read those for us? Sure. I've got the Good News Bible here. Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do what my Father in heaven wants them to do.

When judgment day comes, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, in your name we spoke God's message. By your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles. Then I will say to them, I never knew you. Get away from me, you wicked people. The least comforting way to end your sermon is this.

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Sometimes it's good to be in discomfort if it reveals something to us. Yeah, I actually love that about Jesus and I love that about His teachings. There's so many times when He says something that's very discomforting and challenging. Even like the, I think about the rich young ruler, it says he went away very sad after Jesus had told him, but that's what he needed to hear, wasn't it? He needed to be challenged by Jesus. I love that He does this. I think this passage reminds me of how,

man looks at the outward appearance, God looks at the heart. Jesus kind of cuts through all of that. I guess this is sort of talking about judgment day, on that day. He'll be able to cut through all of that and He'll see through to our hearts. Our hearts will be exposed. And it's at that point that He's going to say whether, you know, did He ever know us or not? It's quite, it is, it's a very challenging thing.

which I think if you read it sincerely, we all have to respond to this in some way. I always feel quite sad for the people who come to Jesus and say this in this passage. I always feel, oh, that's really to be deceived, to think that you were doing the right thing and that you were doing it even more so. It repeats in Jesus' name that you were doing these things, but actually that you missed.

You completely missed the point. The point isn't that we're doing these things, but that we know Him and as a result of knowing Jesus, our lives and the work of our lives changes. I see what you mean by saying you feel sorry for them. You know, we should have that compassion, particularly if we see that someone is deceived right now, where there's still time to kind of encourage them and point them to God, whatever. But this whole sermon we've had,

Jesus like calling out hypocrisy, the kind of ways that we deceive ourselves, that we're doing something that really we're not wholeheartedly doing, you know, you know, praying in the street to be seen, what will your reward be? I do think it links back to that. I don't think this is necessarily like all these poor suckers who completely were confident they were always doing the right thing. I think.

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there would have been an opportunity for them to see that they were not doing this from the right heart. So I don't think it's Jesus turning around and kind of saying, huh, you know, it's not cruel. I think you're very kind -hearted, Noel, because you're feeling sorry for a wolf there. And I'm not sure we should feel sorry for wolves. I think they are, you know, they are wild, destructive.

destructive people. So, this is one of the occasions where the headings that a lot of Bibles put into these blocks of text, as they would have been, I think they can be a bit misleading. So, we've got a tree and its fruit, which is one section in the Good News Bible. I think it's the same in the New International Version, isn't it?

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Okay, right. But it does distinguish, doesn't it, between these two sections? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I'm not sure that's really helpful. I think that these bits belong together. So, be on your guard against false prophets. And they are the ones, it seems to me, who say, Lord, Lord, in your name we spoke God's message, etc., etc. So, it's actually, perhaps, arguably,

the same audience, it's the same section it's talking about. So you're reading this more as they're using these things as an excuse to say to Jesus, oh, but we did all of these things, look. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So I remember as a kid reading this verse and being quite scared of it and thinking, oh, oh my goodness, what if this happens to me? The idea that we would be bringing this back to the passage right before it, I actually think would be comforting for a lot of Christians reading this.

I was recently in a talk on just a teaching on hell that was being given, and one of the first questions, someone raised their hand and they asked about this passage. And they said, how do I know that this wouldn't be me on that day? So I think it's really good at kind of dispelling that fear that might come along with this passage that people would finally get to Jesus and he would say, I didn't know you. But I do still think that it's good to be thinking to ourselves as well. Am I, do I know?

Do I know Jesus? Am I doing the works and doing the things that He's asked me to do without actually knowing Him personally, without actually spending any time with Him or talking to Him about things? Am I just, am I the same as this passage, as these people in this passage? Yeah, yeah, I think that's a really good point, Noel, actually. And the thing that it makes me think about is just back in that previous section again about the fruit, you know, speaking God's message.

casting out demons, performing miracles, they are not the fruit. The fruit is something different entirely and that's what we're all going to be judged by. So all this flashy showy stuff is not really relevant, I think Jesus is saying. Yeah, and you know, I too, Noel, have kind of felt maybe at certain times that anxiety. What if I'm

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I'm not wholehearted. But something that really encourages me when I'm feeling that anxiety is to pray, inspired by Psalm 139 verses 23 -24, where it says, search me God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there's any offensive way in me and lead me in the way everlasting. And I think that's such a great model of how we can pray when we're feeling anxious about this. Yeah, that's really good. So,

After this, we move on to the last passage, don't we, which is Jesus' parable of the two house builders. I'll read it for us, starting in verse 24. Therefore, everyone who hears these words of mine and acts on them may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell and the floods came and the wind blew and slammed against that house. And yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.

Everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a foolish man who builds his house on the sand. The rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and slammed against that house and it fell in great words this fall. This is almost, if we think about it, this is like a summation of what he's been saying, isn't it? Like, here are all of the teachings. Here's what...

the life of someone who's following me, this is what it's going to look like. This is what my kingdom on earth is going to look like. And if you build your life on these things, you will be strong. And if you don't, your house will fall, right? But the thing I love about it is I think there's such a stress on our actions because we live today and it's a lot about in the church today is we are saved by grace through faith, right? Which is absolutely true.

But Jesus talks about what we do in our works and our actions all the time. It's very, very important to Jesus. And so I think this is so, so beautiful. And the Sermon on the Mount is so beautiful because it actually does matter what we do. Jesus, the Sermon on the Mount isn't saying, you know, I want you to make sure that you go to church and worship really passionately on Sundays. And then, you know, that'll be that. And you'll be a Christian.

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But you actually, like, he wants us to give to the poor and he wants us to help the prisoner and he wants us to take care of the widow. And these are actually really important to Jesus. And I think this parable really sums that up, that our actions really matter. I think that's a great takeaway, really, from the whole of the Sermon on the Mount, isn't it? For me, I read that and I thought, well, yeah, we're back to the narrow gate again. And because ...

Building your house on rock is hard, you know. Getting down to the bedrock takes hours of work with a pickaxe and shovel, and it's much easier to throw a shack up on a bit of a sandy, you know, sand dune or something like that. And so putting the time in and the discipline and the effort, the work, it's hard labor sometimes. But for me,

That's what the Sermon on the Mount is about. This is what it takes to be a secure disciple of Christ. It's not easy. And this back house built on the rock will last into eternity. You know, it's the lastingness of it too. Yeah. Oh, very good. Well, that's it. This is our podcast on the Sermon on the Mount. Next week, we're going to be answering your questions. So, if there are any that you've had,

Over these last six weeks, anything that we've said that you went, hmm, I actually don't agree with that, or you have questions for us, just on any topics, please do send them in. So you can send them in at biblesociety .org .uk forward slash rooted questions. And that's it for this week, and we'll see you for the official last episode of series one of the Rooted Podcast next week. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Rooted Podcast.

To find out more about Bible Society's mission to invite people to discover the Bible for themselves in England, Wales and around the world, visit biblesociety .org .uk.