The Rooted Podcast

Speaker 3 (00:00.096)
There's so many different voices to listen to. It is easy to be led astray. There's a huge onus, there, on church leaders to be good shepherds? There's a huge onus on us as sheep to be able to discern Jesus' voice.

But nowadays, at least in my context, it doesn't really resonate. So I just tried to think of what would Jesus say if he came to Wiltshire? He might say, well actually the predators that I come across are these 1.5 tonne things on wheels, you know, moving at speed. They can just squash you in an instant. I sort of think, what if Jesus came and said, you know, I'm the traffic warden or I'm the lollipop lady.

You can fall into a trap of thinking of God as distant, but the Bible presents a real picture of intimacy and care, knowledge of us, an invitation for us to know Him and follow Him and draw near.

You're listening to the Rooted Podcast from Bible Society. In each series we take a closer look at a theme or book of the Bible.

and explore its relevance in our lives today. This is our series on Jesus's I Am Statement.

Speaker 1 (01:06.091)
Well, hi everybody. Welcome back to The Rooted Podcast. I am Mark and I'm joined today by Esther and by Michael to discuss John chapter 10, where Jesus says, I am the gate and he says, I am the good shepherd. Before we get into our conversation today, this is the first time that we've had Michael join us. So, Michael, why don't you just introduce yourself to our listeners?

Hi, I'm Michael and I work for Bible Society. I've been with Bible Society for 19 years. Would you believe it? And I've worked in church engagement as we call it, resourcing churches, then moving across to publishing. And these days I'm a writer and editor of sorts. In terms of my faith, it's obviously something very personal. Since my teenage years, it's very much a thing of the heart, but also it's always been very important to me this whole...

faith seeking, understanding thing, sort of loving God with my heart and my mind, as indeed the Bible tells us to.

Great. And I think you're just in the right place actually on The Rooted Podcast because I think that's what we like to do. So welcome and it's good to have you with us, Michael. That's really good. Before we carry on, in a previous episode, we had a question about something I said in that episode where I said I didn't think that the I Am sayings of Jesus were Jesus.

actually claiming to be God in the way that God takes the name I am in Exodus chapter 3. Somebody wrote in just asking me to explain that. A couple of things. Firstly, I think when God says I am or I am who I am in Exodus chapter 3 when Moses is talking to God in the burning bush, it's just that.

Speaker 1 (02:49.044)
It's not I am something. It's not a description, it's not a metaphor. It's God saying, I am beyond your understanding and the only thing I'm like is myself. So it's not as if he's trying to explain himself. On the other hand, when Jesus says, I am the gate or I am the good shepherd or I am the light of the world, he's deliberately using metaphors and he's comparing himself to other things and other people. So he's using I am.

in a completely different way. The other thing is that I am is a fairly common expression. I do remember a couple of days ago saying to somebody, well, I suppose I'm the gatekeeper here. And we were talking about, you know, me being able to connect them with somebody, give them access to a person. But when I said I'm the gatekeeper, I wasn't claiming to be God. Well, you'll all be glad to know. So that's it's just it's a common expression, really. And I know it's often said that, you know, when when Jesus says I am the

bread of life or whatever he's claiming to be God. But I don't think it's true. I don't think that's what it means. But maybe Jesus is deliberately heightening the language that he's using and he's using language with a particular power, I suppose, which goes along with his claim to be the Messiah. Maybe the people at the time would have heard echoes of Exodus 3. I think it was very nuanced, if so, and I don't think we know. In fact, the evidence really is that people didn't take it like that because nobody seems to have sort of

pushed back against it, as you would have expected. So anyway, I hope that answers the question, but it's an interesting question and it's one which does come up sometimes. So let's get into John 10, which is an absolutely fascinating part of the gospel. And these are such well-known pictures. There's a cluster of images, if you like, around the shepherding idea. So Esther, I wonder if I could just invite you to read a few verses just to sort of set the scene for us. Is that okay?

Sure. Yeah, I think I'll read verses seven to 13. And this is from the NIV.

Speaker 3 (05:09.858)
that they may have life and have it to the full. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he's a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

Fantastic, thank you. So we've got these images relating to shepherding. We've got the gate, we've got Jesus actually saying, I am the good shepherd. And Michael, this is kind of a thread that runs through scripture, isn't it? There's a lot about shepherds in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, in fact.

Yeah, as you said, it's also there in the New Testament. At the end of the day, this was an agrarian society. So it's quite an obvious image, maybe less obvious for, say, us four, who I know live in more urban areas rather than rural, but it was a very familiar image and it would have been evocative for the people who had those parallels to do with sheep and with goats. There are instances in the New Testament with Jesus talking about going after the lost sheep.

And then we've obviously got the parable of the sheep and the goats. then, by the way, it's quite interesting. The reason they had sheep and goats, that was actually quite handy because the sheep would eat the grass and the goats would eat sort of the rougher bits. So they really maximized basically the land so nothing got wasted. So having these two types of animal was quite helpful as well.

Why does Jesus talk about the sheep rather than the goats then? Were sheep more valuable as an animal?

Speaker 2 (06:55.95)
would say maybe the shepherd image is just much stronger because Moses was a shepherd, David was a shepherd, and of course in the Gospels we keep having, you know, especially St. Matthew, we've got Jesus the new Moses, there's a strong emphasis on that, and of course then in John he's the good shepherd. It was very crystal clear that for the early Christians that

Jesus was, in a sense, also not only the new Moses, but he was also based on the prototype of David. He was the new David. He was the messianic king. Remember, God made sort of four covenants, didn't he, in the Old Testament. So there was Noah, and then there was Abraham, and then there was Moses, and there was David. And that, of course, for people who lived in what's called Second Temple Judaism, that was the promise to them.

God made an everlasting covenant with David and therefore he's not going to abandon us and he's going to send the Messiah who will come from Bethlehem and he'll liberate us.

all that shepherd imagery. When you think of the Psalms, like Psalm 100, you know, you're my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, Ezekiel chapter 34, that's an amazing place in the Old Testament. And it's not just Ezekiel actually, there's lots of shepherd and sheep imagery. This idea of God's people being a flock of sheep and needing to, well, we should all be following God, but then you've got who are the people that God has sort of put in place to shepherd and lead, like King David.

Esther, you mentioned Ezekiel 34 and Michael, I know that you've been thinking about that. So what's Ezekiel 34 about and what's its relevance to John chapter 10?

Speaker 2 (08:47.662)
It's really a treasure trove. I'll point that out in a minute, if I can just sort of start off with the context. Ezekiel is this prophet, Old Testament prophet, who prophesies in the context of the Babylonian exile. Babylon is superpower of the day, and they've raised Jerusalem to the ground. They've sort of dragged off Jewish people into exile. The thing is, we have to kind of get our head around

people thought in the day. Gods were, or deities were often seen as sort of local gods. And so in Babylonian eyes, know, their god Marduk had beat Yahweh, the god of the Jews. It was kind of like Marduk one and Yahweh nil. And there was just that real risk of them losing their faith, of the Jewish people losing it and basically say, right, know, God has lost.

Because they had a completely different idea of God, it's not a local deity. He's the God of the universe. Therefore, they stuck with God. And they're through Ezekiel. God is telling them, you know, don't lose your faith, don't lose your identity. God is going to rescue you. And that's basically the message of Ezekiel 34, that God will call his people back into the land. He is still their faithful shepherd. And now...

the penny might be starting to drop because of course John's community, the people John is writing to, they were in exile as it were. The Jewish community were sort of from when you read the gospel it seems that increasingly there was tension. It's funny that John speaks of the Jews. I John was Jewish, Jesus was Jewish, thanks very much.

But obviously, the people he's writing to, is a context where there's an increasing chasm between the Jewish community and Jewish believers in Jesus. So they no longer, the Christians, no longer really belong to the Jewish community, but of course they didn't belong to the pagan community either. So they were a bit like the people in the Old Testament in the days of exile. They were sort of at a real risk of losing their identity. And so I think it's not too far-fetched to say there is a real parallel there.

Speaker 2 (10:59.99)
and sort of almost like John saying, just like your forefathers in the days of the exile, you know, you're in danger of giving up on Jesus as the Israelites had been in danger of giving up on the Lord. So in Ezekiel, the rulers of Israel are the bad shepherds, and in John, the religious leaders are failing the people. In Ezekiel, you've got the scattered sheep, which is basically the Jewish scattered in Babylon, and in John, you've got the young church and the threat, and then you've got the

promise in Ezekiel 34 verse 11, God will take care of them. It speaks of the gathering of the scattered sheep. And then in John 10 verse 9, you've got, they'll come in and go out and find pasture. I think that that sounds...

remarkably similar. And then God will give them a shepherd king like David. That's Ezekiel 34 verse 24. And of course, Jesus in John 10 says, am the good shepherd. So he's almost like a spiritual David. Then Ezekiel talks about God will free his people, he'll bring them back to their land. There will be social justice, political independence. It'll be Shalom. It'll be the messianic age.

God will make sure that happens. So forget about all the bad shepherds, bad kings, all that kind of exile, forget it. God says he will bring healing. And doesn't that sound like, for instance, John 10, 10, you know, I've come that they would have life in all this fullness. So there's lots of fascinating parallels there.

Yeah, just what you were saying about that covenant of peace that's kind of, I think it's verses 25 to 31 in Ezekiel 34. And it very much there does seem to be talking about the people of Israel, you know, having that he's got this covenant with them, and they're going to be secure. But I was thinking as well about the connection in John 10. Jesus brings in this idea that he has other sheep that are not of the sheepfold.

Speaker 3 (12:58.688)
of Israel. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice and there will be one flock and one shepherd. So I think you've got that real sense of like this image in the Old Testament and the covenant with Israel. But then you've also got this New Testament idea of this covenant with the world at large, the blessing that comes through those covenants with Israel to anyone who will believe, which obviously is a big theme in the Gospel of John.

So there is a definite read across there and it looks as though Jesus was very self-consciously fulfilling this prophecy. There are so many resonances there, aren't there? He's deliberately calling them back to think about the bad shepherds in Ezekiel 34 and saying, look, those are the bad ones. I am the good one. And I think it certainly adds another layer to our understanding, doesn't it, if we realise that connection. So there's the Ezekiel connection.

I don't think we can think about shepherds in the Bible without thinking about the parable of the lost sheep. So Esther, why don't you just talk us through the parable of the lost sheep?

is one of my favourite parables. It's got to be one of the most encouraging parables there are. It's in Matthew 18 verses 10 to 14, and Jesus is trying to say, he's trying to reveal something about the kingdom of God and what his father is like and what he is like. And he talks about a man who has a hundred sheep. So let's say this is like a shepherd. And he says, if one of them goes astray, doesn't he leave the 99? You know,

the ones that are safe, to go out and look for that lost sheep. And if he finds it, he celebrates. And he makes this connection saying, that's what my father in heaven is like. That's his heart for those who are lost and astray. He doesn't just care about the good sheep that haven't gone astray. And well, know, as long as I've got them here in my fold, that's all good. And it's a shame that that sheep wandered off. It's something about the lengths that he will go to, to seek after that lost

Speaker 3 (14:58.21)
sheep who's gone astray. It makes me think of the Gospel of John which talks about how Jesus has come into the world not to condemn it but to save it. Because you might think that that sheep that's wandered off is well condemned, too bad. You know, they're at the mercy of whatever might happen to them out there. But God says, no, I'm after that sheep too. And is that not one of the most encouraging things? When we look at our own lives, I'm sure we can all think of times when we've been that lost sheep.

It's a really lovely story, isn't it? I've got to admit, I'm a bit of a country music fan and I can never read that story without thinking about the... There's an old hymn called The Ninety and Nine, which is sung by Tennessee Ernie Ford. And I don't know, can we put it in the show notes afterwards? A link to it, Jack? He's got a wonderful sort of bass baritone voice and he sings this... he sings, none of the ransomed ever knew how deep were the waters crossed.

nor how dark was the night the Lord passed through ere he found his sheep that was lost. Out in the desert he heard his cry, to a sick and helpless and ready to die. I mean, it's wonderful. Go and listen to it,

Do know this off by heart, Mark? Or are you just reading off? Do you listen to it twice a day?

Songs stick in your mind, don't they? That's why think that biblical songs and hymns are so amazing.

Speaker 1 (16:17.196)
And there's just one other passage about sheep and shepherds, which I think is just worth noticing because it kind of adds still another dimension to all this. And that's in 1 Peter chapter 5, where Peter says to the elders among you, be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers. When the chief shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

In Ezekiel 34 you've got the idea of the leaders of the Israelites, the leaders of the Jews as shepherds and they're bad shepherds. And then in 1 Peter you've got the idea of the elders of the church, of the pastors of the church, and the name pastor means shepherd of course. They are to be shepherds as well, so they're to be the under-shepherds and Christ himself is the chief shepherd. So when we read

the story about the Good Shepherd, we're also reading about how priests, how pastors, how church leaders ought to be conducting themselves with the flock that they've been given to care for.

I feel that's such a strong theme in the John passage, know, just coming off the back of in John chapter 9, we've got the healing of this blind man and the Pharisees, you know, are really instead of just being overjoyed at that and thinking, wow, what a miracle and, you know, digging into what does it mean that Jesus has performed this miracle, they're busy interrogating the man who's been healed and even bringing in others, even his own parents trying to get

suppress the truth about that healing and they end up kicking that man out of the synagogue. So that's clearly an example, isn't it, of very bad shepherding? And then it goes into this discourse in John 10. And even beyond the passage that we've looked at, still in John 10, but if you flip over, it brings in that shepherd and sheep imagery, you know, my sheep know my voice. He's saying to them, not only are you bad shepherds and you're acting like the thieves and robbers or

Speaker 3 (18:18.776)
potentially the hired hand in the imagery that we read earlier, but you're not even my sheep. You know, you're actually, you're not hearing my voice. So you're not even of the flock anymore.

OK, so we've been talking, I think, mainly really about the background to John 10, but I wonder what Jesus is getting at when he says, I am the gate.

I do find it curious actually, because in the first six verses of John 10, he doesn't actually really use this kind of imagery. And right at end of that, says that the Pharisees didn't understand what he was getting at. And so then when he starts off this new thing and describes himself, I am the gate, that's meant to be him trying to explain it to them.

So, but to me, it kind of seems to make it more complicated because definitely the first image really that he brought up was shepherding. But now he's talking about the gate. I think when I think about doors and gates, it's a very rich image, isn't it? Because it's an access point and that's the way that you get in or go out of a place. And we do have that language in those verses about

us sort of listening to Jesus' voice and He will lead us out and He will lead us in, etc. But I think it is also an image of protection, isn't it? Because you can shut out the dangers, you can keep safe and warm and collected together inside with this door. So yeah, I don't think it is a simple thing. And if Jesus is saying, I'm the gate, I think He's saying, I'm your access to the Kingdom or eternal life.

Speaker 3 (20:02.744)
But he's also saying, I'm the one who is providing for you and keeping you safe.

It's not a straightforward illustration, is it? And I wonder if it's helpful to think of two different kinds of enclosures or sheepfolds. In one of the commentaries I looked at, it said that a town or a village might have a communal sheepfold and the shepherds would bring the flocks in and they'd be sort of permanent structures and there would be a lockable gate or a gate that could be barred.

to keep them from bandits or whatever. So that's what's going on in the first image in the first six verses. But then if they were out in the hills in the summertime, say, the shepherds would stay out in the hills with them all night and they'd live in the open with them. And there might be a sort of rough enclosure, but they wouldn't bother to build an actual door. The shepherd would lie down across the entrance to the sheepfold. And so the sheep wouldn't pass the, they wouldn't jump over the shepherd.

And so in that sense, the shepherd was literally the door of the sheep. And that's the other image that Jesus is using here. So as you say, Esther, it's quite a complex image, really, isn't it?

think for me it's also a of a difficult image because I'm just sort of an urban guy. And I think for me it's just kind of this protection thing is really important as well that you both mentioned. The image is the shepherd is protecting the sheep against predators. But nowadays, at least in my context, it doesn't really resonate. So I just tried to think of what would Jesus say if he came to little Corsham and Wiltshire? And he might say,

Speaker 2 (21:49.528)
Well, actually, as I look out my window, the predators that I come across are these 1.5-ton things on wheels, you know, moving at speed. They can just squash you in an instant. I sort of think, why if Jesus came and said, you know, I'm the traffic warden or I'm the lollipop lady and, you Christians, you're the little kids, you know, don't run, don't run, just stop here, look, listen. Do you know what I Because it's that idea. Yeah, go ahead, Esther.

Well, I just wanted to say, just, cannot let a mention of a lollipop lady go without pass because my mum was a lollipop lady for 16 years for a primary school. And that is a lovely image because, you know, that is a role that is all about stepping out into the danger to stop it, slow it down, and then allow people to make a safe path to the other side of the road. So I love that.

What does sheep need protecting from today? If you think of us as God's sheep, as Jesus' flock of sheep, what do think we need protecting from?

We today, in our churches and listening to all the voices, there's so many different voices to listen to. I guess our podcast isn't just another one in a multitude of voices. Places where we're listening to people talk about Jesus, saying all kinds of things about how to live our lives, how to glorify God, whatever it is, but it is easy to be led astray. It is easy to get lost in the weeds too.

Even if it's something as subtle as like not seeing the main point and getting caught up in all kinds of things that aren't really that important, you know, we need protecting from that. And the people, if we're looking at this shepherding analogy and not just thinking of Jesus, but I guess thinking of his sub-shepherds until he comes again, there's a huge onus, isn't there, on church leaders to be good shepherds. There's a huge onus on us as sheep to be able to discern Jesus' voice.

Speaker 3 (23:50.602)
in what these shepherds are saying to us and to follow the right things. I think it's interesting in this passage, the repeated mention of how my sheep follow me, but they won't follow a stranger. And I was thinking about that because I was thinking, sometimes we do because that's how we get led astray and off track. what does it mean to not follow strangers, but to follow God's voice in this situation? Yeah.

I I was thinking along the same sort of lines, I suppose. mean, call it false teaching, if you like, or call it just, you know, not representing Jesus as he really is. mean, Bible Society has just done an amazing bit of research, which the report is called The Quiet Revival. And it's about this massive upsurge in the number of people actually going to church. So in 2018, something like 8 % of the population are in church at least monthly. In 2024, when we did the second

leg of the survey, it's gone up to 12 percent. So that's an extra two million people in church at the end of six years. So there is this quiet revival going on. But one of the questions is, why are people coming to church? Young men in particular, why are young men coming to church? And the thinking is that it may be something to do with a quest for meaning.

They're coming and they're finding in church something that they're not finding elsewhere. If we don't represent Jesus as we ought to, if we don't reflect Jesus as we ought to, in the way that we are and in the things that we teach, then basically we're selling them something which is fake. We're not allowed to do that, are we? I suppose the other question in my mind was about who are the robbers and the thieves.

Well, it seems to me that they are the ones who are misrepresenting Jesus and we, you know, we mustn't be numbered among those.

Speaker 3 (25:49.166)
dipping back into Ezekiel 34. In the first six verses when it describes the bad shepherds there, what it's saying is that they sort of benefit off the sheep for their own gain. They slaughter them, they wear the wool, et cetera, et cetera, but they do not strengthen those that are weak and take care of the sheep. They're using them for their own gain. And I think you do get an echo of that.

in John's Gospel, speaking about the Pharisees, they've lost track of like, well, we're here, we're meant to be waiting for the Messiah, we're meant to be looking at the evidence that he's arrived, but instead they're trying to gatekeep power, whatever they want the sheep to follow them, whether they're the right people to follow or not, they'd rather keep them as their followers. I think

Keep them and keep them from following Jesus as the Messiah.

Yeah, and I think that that's the danger, it, anyway? So I guess this quiet revival report, it's so exciting to think of two million more people coming to church. But I think we've seen it time and again, probably or heard of it. People can get very excited about numbers, can't they? They can be like, wow, look, this long ago, our congregation was this size, and now it's this size, and look who's here isn't that brilliant.

we can get really excited about that and maybe we start to think, our church is a mover and a shaker in the Christian world. But it can't just be that, can it? Because ultimately, that will lead us off track. It will get us thinking about the wrong things and sort of benefiting off these sheep instead of pointing them to Christ.

Speaker 1 (27:28.11)
That leads me onto another theme actually. This idea of the sheep knowing the shepherd and the shepherd knowing the sheep. There's something here about it not being a numbers game. It's about relationships and about God knowing us and us knowing God. I mean, does that make sense?

Yeah, I think that comes to mind, as you say, it's in a different league and I think that must have been surprising also for people in the Hellenic, in the Roman world, encountering these Christians who were talking about things like, you know, God is love. yeah, so that was weird for them. You know, you would honor your local deities and you make sure that if you travel to a different city, you offer a sacrifice at the...

at the temple of that local deity, you know, just to pay your respects basically, but that's it. And here suddenly you've got these Christians, you know, talking about sort of this love relationship with God, which is amazing, and this love relationship with Jesus. And I always think, in a sense, I think I'm most prone to stray from the shepherd when I kind of lose sight of the fact that he loves me, you know, when I'm...

maybe deep down have a worry, well, is he a thief? Is he a wolf? Is he gonna deprive me of my joy in life or hadn't I better, you know, just, and I think it's always when at the moments where I'm overwhelmed by the love of God, that discipleship comes a lot easier, never comes easier, because obviously I'm only a frail little human, but it's easier when I'm really sort of,

very deeply aware of God loves me. He's not a thief, He's not a hired hand, He's not a robber. He's the Good Shepherd.

Speaker 3 (29:23.234)
I think your mention there of the hired hand is so good at maybe capturing what you were saying about that sense of intimacy versus distant, because you can fall into a trap of thinking of God as distant. But the Bible, so many stories, we talked about the parable of the lost sheep, but also in this passage, it presents a real picture of intimacy and care, knowledge of us, an invitation for us to know Him and follow Him and draw near.

ever nearer because the ultimate goal is that we're going to dwell in perfect peace in the presence of God. So yeah, that kind of hired hand idea. Because yeah, the point there is that the hired hand doesn't really care that much. They are acting as a shepherd. They do it to a certain degree. But when the chips are down, they don't really care. And that is not what God is like either. He cares to

a degree that no human shepherd will ever probably live up to because he lays down his life.

I remember watching a TV, some farming program a few years ago, but not many years ago. So this isn't, you know, back in the midst of time, this is modern, about a Cumbrian hill farming family. And they did a live exercise where the guy had, you know, I it wasn't a huge flock, it was a hundred sheep or so. And he was able to identify each one of them as they

drove them past him. And to me, they just looked like sheep. And it was just an amazing, it was an amazing example of, of what you can do if you really know your flock and if you really care for them, you notice everything about them. And it's because you know them so intimately, that you can tell when something's wrong with them. You can tell when one of them is failing in some way when they need help. And it's just because of that attention to detail.

Speaker 1 (31:21.506)
And I thought that was a brilliant picture of the shepherd's care for the individual sheep. I remember it was Pope Francis who'd said something like that the shepherd ought to smell of the sheep. And he meant, you know, the priests in his Catholic church ought to smell of the sheep. So they ought to be, you know, living among them and knowing them and caring for them as the, as the sort of under shepherd. And I thought that was a brilliant picture really as well.

You know, it really makes me think of one of my favourite passages from Acts. It's in Acts 20 and it's where Paul is leaving the people in Ephesus and he's going on to Jerusalem and the Holy Spirit has been warning him again and again everywhere he's going that he is going to die or he'll be arrested and he's already experienced such persecution.

yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:17.1)
And it's this passage about his kind of leave taking from them and this idea of the shepherd smelling like the sheep. I just think it's amazing. He kind of knows probably that he's not going to see them again in person. And it's the way he talks about what he's done while he's been there and how he charges them to look after the flock after he's left.

from verse 25, verse this section, where he's sort of saying, declare to you today that I'm innocent of the blood of any of you, for I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. He took right at the end, it sort of says, you know, remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you day and night with tears. And in that passage, he does use shepherd and sheep imagery. And I just think that's a pastor, isn't it?

or a shepherd who cares so deeply for his people that he's like begging them as he leaves and saying, remember what I told you, listen to the warnings, be good shepherds, look after the sheep, hold on, you know? And that was definitely speaking into a context of suffering and persecution and he knew he would go on to suffer and be persecuted. This passage really makes me love Paul and make me just sort of think about if my pastor cared about me that much, as I'm sure they do.

But if they really did to that degree, isn't that incredible to be loved in that way? And that's even just a dark shadow, you know, it's an imitation of the great love that God has for us that he doesn't want any of us to perish.

That's great Esther, thank you for sharing that. We will move to a conclusion I think, but it's been fantastic to have a look at this passage and to draw out some of the ideas behind Jesus as the Good Shepherd and as the Gate. I just wondered if there's anything either of you would like to share about how this speaks to you today? Is there anything that's particularly stood out for you?

Speaker 1 (34:09.462)
I'm going to say that I really like the idea of the sheep knowing the shepherd and hearing the shepherd's voice and following the shepherd. I love the idea of being known in that way, being known and still being loved. mean, that's a very precious idea, I think, for me.

I think for me, if I'm going to apply this picture to myself, I want to be a sheep that knows Jesus' voice and that can't be led astray, essentially. I mean, there's an assurance in there because later in that passage he talks about no one can snatch away the sheep that God has given him, his Father has given him. So I think I do have that assurance, but I just want more and more.

be listening for Jesus' voice, discerning it and living out my faith. But also, I don't know that I'm a shepherd in any sense, but where I do have a voice and I can share about Jesus, I can share the gospel, I want to be a good shepherd or a good influence in that sense. I don't want to be a thief or a robber. I don't want to get off track thinking about my own personal benefit or gain or just any wrong thing. I really want people to know Jesus.

think it was Albert Einstein who once said, in order to be a good member of a flock of sheep, you have to be a sheep. And that was certainly not meant as a compliment. So there is obviously that connotation that sheep are dumb. And I think we should sometimes be wary of sort of buying into a human shepherd all too quickly, whether they are religious or whether it's parents or...

you know, teachers or politicians or whatever, that we are respectfully and humbly skeptical, as in, I don't think Jesus wants us to be dumb because we're sheep. I think that would be taking the metaphor too far. And that he wants us to thrive and grow in wisdom as we stay close to him and in discernment, whichever area of life it may be.

Speaker 1 (36:11.15)
Follow the good shepherd, not the bad ones. Okay, well, thank you very much indeed, both of you. I think it's been a really interesting discussion and it's been fascinating to look at this really wonderful passage as well. And thank you for listening, everyone. Don't forget to like us and review us and recommend us to your friends if you enjoyed this conversation. And do check out biblesociety.org.uk forward slash rooted to find out more and we will see you next week.