The Rooted Podcast

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You're listening to the Rooted Podcast from Bible Society, a Christian organization that invites people to discover the life -giving power of the Bible. In each series, we dig deeper into a theme or book of the Bible and explore its message for us today. This is series one, Sermon on the Mount. Welcome back to the Rooted Podcast. This is the third episode where we'll be talking about the Sermon on the Mount.

Just before we get started, as a quick reminder, if you do have any questions about anything we talked about in these episodes, we'd love for you to ask them at biblesociety .org .uk forward slash rooted questions. Today, I'm here with Mark and Esther, and we're going to be looking a bit about what Jesus says about swearing oaths and loving our enemies in Matthew five. So we'll split this into a few sections and Esther is going to start reading for us from verse 33. Oh, excellent. Yes.

So this is in the NIV.

All you need to say is simply yes or no. Anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

Yeah, where do we want to start with this? It's really interesting thinking about it, just thinking about what it would have meant to them then and then what it means to us today. I don't know, maybe some context for this or first thoughts on this. In the commentaries that I was looking at, it was saying that it links back actually to Numbers chapter 30, which is talking about sort of, you know, its instructions for making oaths, keeping them in the Old Testament law.

I think it's a really interesting passage because actually it doesn't just talk about if you make an oath, keep it. But there's also, it touches on a conversation around not making foolish oaths. The context here is women making oaths and there's a case for fathers or husbands sort of nullifying that oath if it is foolish and they're to do that straight away. Otherwise you remain responsible or potentially they are responsible for that oath not being kept. So...

really fascinating that passage. I'm sure there's a lot that we could say. There's another bit of context as well, and that is that back in Jesus' day, some rabbis divided oaths into two categories. And one was a binding category, and one was a non -binding category. So, if, for instance, your oath contained the name of God, if you swore by God, then you had to keep that oath no matter what the consequences are.

you know, if it was inconvenient or damaging to you, didn't matter, had to keep the oath anyway. But if you swore by something else, like by Jerusalem or by heaven or by earth, there was a bit more wiggle room and you could get out of it. So then Jesus is actually saying, but don't do that either. Don't even swear by those other things. So I guess the question is, why were people swearing by those other things? Why would they swear by Jerusalem?

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and on their own lives, maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think the idea behind swearing and oath at all is that you are effectively calling somebody or something else to witness or to guarantee that what you're saying is the truth. So you're holding yourself accountable to a higher power. And obviously, the highest power is God himself.

But you could swear by other things that are slightly lower on the scale, as it were, like Jerusalem or whatever. I mean, this thing in Britain, sometimes people swear, on my mother's life, which always seems a bit overdramatic to me, to be perfectly honest. But you hear that sometimes. And it's a way of emphasizing that they're telling the truth by

making the person they're talking to think, well, obviously, their mother's life is the thing that's most valuable to them in the whole world. So it's this thing about being accountable to a higher power, I think. But I think this does touch on maybe some of what Jesus is getting at as well, because if I hear somebody giving a really strong expression of feeling about something they're going to do or, you know,

they make a really sort of hyperbolic statement about their commitment to something, maybe in the way that these oaths are sort of expressed. It does make me wonder about their insincerity. Is it about, do they want a kind of short -term benefit from appearing to strongly hold the right opinion or to be saying that they're going to do the right thing, but they're not necessarily actually intending to follow through? Yeah. Yeah. So it's as if Jesus is saying,

Don't, like, instead of swearing so that you seem as if you're a good, upstanding person, just be a good, upstanding person. Like, just let your yes be yes, let your no be no. Don't have to bind yourself to something else and be seen with it in order for people to think that you're good. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right.

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I was looking at some of the early church fathers and what they were saying about taking oaths, and they took what Jesus said really, really literally. And, you know, Clement of Alexandria, for instance, said that Christians should live such pure lives that nobody would ever dream of asking them to take an oath. He says that a Christian lives and walks and shows the trustworthiness of his affirmation in an oath.

unwavering and sure life and speech. So, you know, you live in such a way that oaths just aren't necessary and that everybody knows who you are, everybody knows that you would always tell the truth. So, what are some ways that maybe we think today we would be taking oaths? Because we would say today there may be some places where it seems as if an oath is necessary. So let's say in court if you're asked to lay your hand on a Bible and swear by the Bible.

Or there are oaths like, for example, in the Church of England, if you become a leader in the Church of England, in many cases, you would swear and make an oath to the king now, not to the queen, to the king. So there are lots of oaths like that, that a lot of Christians, I think, today would say are necessary. It's interesting though, isn't it? Because that is about allegiance, whereas I feel that the passages

is talking about personal integrity. So is that a slightly different area, you know, who we swear allegiance to and the oaths that, you know, if you're putting yourself under that power, what you might have to do in order to uphold that allegiance? Is that a different question? I would say that those person, I think this is exactly what Jesus is talking about in this passage. I think he is talking about these kinds of oaths that we make today.

I think the reason I think it applies to this passage is because what I am seen to be binded to and what I want other people to see me as being binded to affects me then as a follower of Jesus. So just to give a personal example, you can probably tell from my accent, I'm from America, I'm not from the UK. And so in the States, when you grow up,

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every single day in school, at least when I was growing up, you stand up and you pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States. And you put your hand over your heart and you face the flag in your classroom and you say, I pledge allegiance to the flag. And you go through the whole thing, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. And as I got older, when I was growing up, I didn't think anything of it. I thought this is just what you do. All countries must do this. This must just be a normal thing.

And now I'm older and I'm reading passages like this in scripture and I'm thinking, oh, that's what I think this is what Jesus is talking about. It's actually quite, it's quite weird when you think about it that as every single day you would have the people of your nation say that they pledge their allegiance to you. When in fact, thinking about it, I don't pledge my allegiance to the United States. I can't think of a good reason that I would pledge my allegiance to a nation. I really can't. I mean, thinking about the United States, it's a,

I won't go off on a big rent, but it's a nation built on genocide, as most nations are. I grew up on stolen land, just like everyone else in the United States and just like most people in most countries did. And for me to then pledge my allegiance to that nation is for me to say, it's for me to say a lot as a follower of Jesus. Yes, I'm willing to fight for this nation. These are my people. The things a lot of Americans say, this is God's country.

You know, one nation under God. There's so many things about it I just think don't make any sense. Christian nations, I don't think exist, if I'm being honest. So I think the reason, though, that Jesus is saying these things is that that then affects me. Like, that affects how I live as a Christian. That affects the decisions that I make, the things I'm willing to do and not do. If I'm really patriotic and nationalistic,

about my country, it would lead me to do a lot of things that would not be following the way of Jesus. Well, and so I suppose what I'm hearing from what you're saying as well is if we bring it back to that question of integrity, there could be a conflict then if you look at what you're being told to do because you've pledged allegiance to this thing, but then, you know, do I personally believe in what that means in this, whatever the context is? So yeah, it could, it,

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could pull your own integrity into question.

I think that's right and that's really interesting. It's really challenging actually what you said, Noah, because it makes me think about idolatry as well. I mean, if we commit ourselves to serving anything that is not God, then there's got to be a sort of conditionality about it, it seems to me.

I mean, you could never say, my country right or wrong, it's always got to be God first, I think. You know, there might be other things that we can think of where, you know, it's fine to have commitments, it's fine to have loyalties, but to bind yourself unreservedly to those commitments is just not something that a Christian should do. There's a famous hymn.

I don't know if you know it in the States, but it's not really a hymn, but it goes, I vow to thee my country, all earthly things above, entire and whole and perfect, the service of my love. It's a great patriotic hymn, you know. But it's really interesting that even in that hymn, it says, I vow to thee my country, all earthly things above. So the writer is saying, my country, I will vow the service of my love to my country.

only above all earthly things. So, even He is sort of reserving this heavenly allegiance, which means that it's still God first. Yes. Yeah. Well, and we kind of saw that, didn't we, in all the imagery of the coronation of King Charles? Yeah. You know, with the sceptre and the crown, that they have the cross on it. There's the imagery there is that you are the King, but you're under God.

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So I guess that's a similar idea. Yeah, I don't think either as Christians that we have, that this means that we have to be against all of these things. You know, I'm not against the United States, I'm not against the Church of England if I were, but I just think that as a Christian, if I've said that I'm going to follow the way of Jesus, then if I'm in a court and they ask me to give my word and swear on the Bible, I would say, well no, I'm not going to do that. I'm very happy to.

give, like, I'm very happy to participate in this thing that you're wanting me to do, but I'm not going to do that because it's not following the way of Jesus. What would you like, like, yes or no, basically putting it back in their court? So, yeah, I don't think it's a coming against these things with, you know, going up in arms, but it's just a kind of a just non -participation really. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and I think for us, it all comes back to this idea about character, doesn't it? And who you are in yourself and what Clement of Alexandria said, you know, you live in such a way that oaths aren't necessary. It's not just about what we do because, you know, the occasions when we might have to swear an oath of any kind are fairly rare, I would have thought. But who we are, well, you know, that's something we have to be working on all the time, I think. Yeah, I mean, just because you would put your hand

on a Bible and swear something that doesn't, that's not, if you're not a person of integrity, it won't make your words true just because you did that. It is, I suppose it is an acknowledgement that you will be judged for lying. You know, perhaps there's that sort of sense in it. But yeah, it's, there's no sort of special formula or power in making these oaths, which kind of links back to the passage with that thing about swearing on your head. You can't turn one.

hair of your head either white or black. So you're sort of, I don't know, threatening yourself with something that you can't bring about. Your words don't have power of that kind, just be honest. Yeah. Shall we move on? We've got the next verses, verse starting in verse 38, and we'll go through to verse 42. Mark, do you want to read those for us? Sure.

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So Jesus says, you have heard that it was said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But now I tell you, do not take revenge on someone who wrongs you. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, let him slap your left cheek too. And if someone takes you to court to sue you for your shirt, let him have your coat as well. And if one of the occupation troops forces you to carry his pack one kilometre, carry it two kilometres.

When someone asks you for something, give it to him. When someone wants to borrow something, lend it to him. There's so much in there that we could talk about. That was the Good News Bible that I was reading from. And if you're more used to other versions, you might have noticed that it says if any of the occupation troops ask you to carry his pack a kilometer, that's a bit of interpretation going on there. I think...

in the original Greek and in most translations it just says, if anyone forces you to go with him one mile, go with him two. But the context is definitely this idea of Roman occupation. And, you know, if there was a legionary who wanted you to carry something, then they could just lug you out of a crowd and make you do it. So that's where that's coming from. So I guess that's the context of the day when Jesus was preaching this sermon on the Mount. But

Just with that, you know, you've heard it said, the Old Testament law that that's sort of relating to, I think, is in Deuteronomy 19 verses 20 to 21. And he's sort of referencing the law of retaliation. And the idea about that was, you know, how do we maintain justice? So God is giving instructions about that and getting rid of evil among His people. But how do we also prevent?

going over the top in appropriate punishment. So it's sort of setting boundaries around dealing with wrongdoing, I guess. Yeah, that's really interesting because people sometimes think, oh yes, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, what a terribly barbaric thing to say and so on. So it shows how awful the Old Testament was, some people say. But actually, it was...

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really a moral advance because it was limiting. It was limiting punishment. It was limiting revenge. You know, if somebody killed somebody from another tribe or clan, then that could just start off a blood feud or a vendetta between everybody. So the law was saying, no, that's not how it's going to be. There's got to be a proportionality in terms of response here.

There was a Babylonian lawgiver called Hammurabi and in Hammurabi's law code, there's something a little bit like this eye for eye, tooth to tooth thing, but it's graduated according to somebody's social status. So if you knocked out the tooth of somebody who was your equal, then they could knock out your tooth as well.

But if in Hammurabi's law code, there's something a little bit like this eye for eye, tooth to tooth thing, but it's graduated according to somebody's social status. So if you knocked out the tooth of somebody who was your equal, then they could knock out your tooth as well. But if...

you knocked out the tooth of somebody who was your inferior, then you just had to pay them a monetary fine. So the Old Testament law was actually a moral advance because it didn't matter whether you were a king or a shepherd or somebody, the law was the same. And also it was designed to limit revenge, not to encourage it.

Well, and what you were saying about escalation there and trying to prevent escalation, I guess that definitely applies to the context of Jesus' day then, under occupation. That's always a tense relationship, isn't it? So here, how does what he's saying in this passage kind of prevent escalation then? Yeah.

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Yeah, because I think the natural thing, the natural human common sense is that if someone hits me, I hit them back. It's the very quick response that we give. But Jesus is saying, I don't know, when I read this, it's almost as if I follow what Jesus does here. If I let the person slap the other cheek, if I give them my coat too, if I go two miles, it's not revenge, but it's almost this kind of resistance.

Yeah. It doesn't use any sort. It's nonviolent resistance, isn't it? It doesn't use any sort of retaliation. But in your resistance, in giving more than they've asked you, you've resisted them. And there's almost this thing of like, you're causing them to treat you as an equal almost, or like to treat you rightfully. I don't think I'm saying this right. But I think we do have to

really approach this through the lens of the situation of the time, which was this whole Rome thing, you know, and this was in Galilee and Galilee was not technically under Roman occupation, but you know, this was still the overall context, you know, because Rome was everywhere. And so for instance, if somebody strikes you on the right cheek,

that's, if you're right -handed as most people are and somebody strikes you on the right cheek because they're facing you, then that's got to be a back -hander. And the back -hander is an expression of contempt. It's just saying, you know, you're not worth a blow, you're not even worth a kick, I'm just going to cuff you and get you out of the way. So if Jesus then says, let him, you know, offer him your left cheek as well, that's a way of saying,

treat me like a man, treat me like an equal. If you're going to hit me, then really hit me. And it's a way of taking back the initiative and taking back the control from somebody who is going to abuse you because they're a Roman soldier or because they're rich or whatever. And I think that's what's behind here, actually. It's what you were saying, Noel. It's about resistance.

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but resist us not in a violent way, in a much more subtle but a much more profound way. What about when we get to the final verse of this passage about, you know, give to the one who asks you and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you? For me, when I read this, I take it quite personally. Like I immediately just think about giving to the poor and the homeless that I see, like on the street.

Because I think, but I think something that's interesting about reading this verse is that I'm reading it from the perspective of someone who's in the middle class, living in the West, who makes more money every month than I need, that I need to live on. That's how I'm reading this verse. So when I read it, I'm challenged to think, oh, I should always give. And if someone asks me to borrow, I should always say yes. Because to me, that's just straight what Jesus is saying really clearly here.

But I was thinking about this. If I'm reading this not from above, let's say from that place of privilege, but I'm reading it from below, let's say from a place of poverty or homelessness or I'm the person in need, I would actually read that verse and think, wow, this is amazing. I'm going to be taken care of by the body of Christ. Like, people are going to give to me. And if I need to borrow, they're going to say yes, because this is the way of Jesus' kingdom. I actually think this verse would fill me with so much hope.

I was thinking about that as I was reading it, just the different ways that we can read this verse. So I think, coming back, reading it, me, as I am, I read it and think, oh, as Christians, do we think to ourselves, oh, I could give to that person, but I suspect that they're homeless. I don't know if they're going to be, if they're using drugs, if they're an alcoholic, what is it? So I won't, so that's probably not a good investment of my money or.

Oh, this poor person at my church just started coming, but I see them smoking outside and I don't want to give to them for that reason, whatever it is. Jesus didn't say, give to the poor unless you think that your money isn't going to be a worthwhile investment. He said, give to the poor. And so for me, it challenges me to think, I'm doing this because Jesus told me to do it. I'm not doing it because I think that it's going to be successful, because I think that it's going to work well for me. I'm doing it because...

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this is the way of Jesus. That was so interesting to hear you kind of imagine reading it from different perspectives. And yeah, I can see how that would be so encouraging. I think it comes back to, doesn't it, those questions of dignity and value in the first ones, in the first examples in this passage where it was maybe somebody wielding power over somebody and taking advantage of them and how do you deal with that? This is about saying how, you know, but people

Everybody is worthy of dignity and respect. So what am I withholding? What do I give begrudgingly? Because when I give, I'm treating a person with dignity and respect. I'm saying, yes, you have needs and I will help to supply them. I mean, part of me just really resonates with everything you just said. And part of me thinks, I just think I want to be a bit more discriminating here.

Does that make me faithless? Does that mean I'm not really taking Jesus seriously? I don't think so. But I do think that Jesus' words probably challenge me more than I would like to be challenged, actually. So maybe that's where I have to land with this. You know, I ought to be doing more in whatever way. Yeah, and also just thinking about the many ways that we can give to the poor. It's actually quite easy for us.

as people, like if we are in the middle class, to give money. But what about giving my time? Do I actually know anyone that's poor? Would I actually have a meal with someone that's poor? Would I actually sit on the street and eat with them? Or would I actually invite them into my home? Like, can I actually extend something further than that? Yeah. Well, and even beyond that, to be honest, I hardly ever have cash on me.

but I can give to a homeless charity. I can support local initiatives that are helping people and where I know that good things will come from that. And it may, who knows whether the person that I see on the street will actually access that service or not, but I'm helping to make something available to them. I do think though that treating someone with dignity, I was listening to something, a person,

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They were sharing that they had been homeless and they weren't bemoaning that, you know, when they were on the street, people didn't always give them money. What they found really hard was being completely ignored, was being invisible. So I think something we can all do, whether we give money in that moment or provide food in that moment, whatever, we can...

see someone, we can notice them. Just think of like, you know, how amazing it was for Hagar in Genesis when she's out in the wilderness. She thinks no one notices her. She's just desperate. And she, and God does see her and she calls him, you're the God who sees me. Well, how can we reflect that as God's people? I do think we should definitely acknowledge people wherever they are.

Yeah, really good. Yeah, really good. Yeah, really good. We're going to take a break now and we'll be back in just a second. We're back and we're going to head into the last section of this passage, which starts in verse 43.

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He causes his son to rise on the evil and the good and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

It's so good to hear that passage actually read in full because I think it's so well known, isn't it? I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. I've heard that often just on its own. Yeah. But there's so much more here. So looking forward to hearing what you think about it. Yeah. I think one of the things I think when I read this is that if we think about the passages we just covered, I kind of feel like there's this thread throughout these verses of don't...

Clutch onto your rights, even though they're your rights. Like you do, like yeah, it would make total sense for you to take revenge on the person who's just harmed you. It would make total sense for you to keep your money. It's yours. You earned it. Like it would make total sense for you to never do anything good for your enemies. They've wronged you. But don't clutch onto that right of yours, even though it's rightfully yours. Instead, do the opposite thing.

To me, it's like this repeated higher call from Jesus, that the way of Jesus is this higher way, the more narrow way. Yeah, which sort of finds its climax in that final verse about, you know, be perfect therefore as your heavenly father is perfect. Yeah. Goodness. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. It just does make me think that maybe one of the ways of approaching this is to say, well, what would good look like for my enemy?

And maybe it's not just defeating my enemy or, you know, for my enemy to suffer, but maybe it's something else. You know, maybe it's that my enemy learns the error of his or her ways. Maybe it's that they grow in some way that they become better people. You know, if you even, even if you're in a war, maybe the

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that the good end result is not the total destruction of your enemy, it's finding your way to a peace that you can both live with. Yeah, it's interesting because I agree with you. I don't think that Jesus is necessarily, he's not saying, you know, don't, he's not specifically talking about violence here, is he, and using violence against enemies.

But this passage could be very easily applied to that situation because as a follower of Jesus, I can't harm my enemy and love them at the same time. It's impossible. So I would think as a follower of Jesus, as you say, if someone is coming to me to kill me, as a follower of Jesus, I cannot try and defend myself and kill the other person instead. And I could do it.

But I would have to admit the fact that in that moment, I could not follow the way of Jesus. It was too difficult. And instead, I used violence against my enemy and I didn't follow his way. And I didn't, as he says in this passage, I think it's really interesting. He says, love your enemies so that you may become sons of your father who is in heaven. So that you may be sons of your father who is in heaven. And in the Beatitudes, the peacemakers are the children of God.

So in that moment, I was not, like, if I retaliate, I was not a peacemaker. I was not acting as a son of, or daughter of my father. I was doing the opposite thing. Yeah, that's really interesting. I'm not a pacifist myself. And I think you're tending towards pacifism there, aren't you, Noel? I am a pacifist, yes. Yeah, yeah. So I think for me, it's...

I mean, some of it is just recognizing that we just live in a fallen world and that we're never going to be able to live in a way which completely reflects the way that we ought to live. And I think.

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Personally, I just think there are some, I mean, I think you're right. I'm trying to avoid thinking that you're right, really, but... I don't know, because I liked what you were saying, Mark, to be honest about, you know, you were talking about how do we make peace. I think whenever a war breaks out, we always hope it's not going to be forever. There are always calls for peace, aren't there? But how do you actually achieve that? If the way that you think about the people on the other side of this conflict is, you know,

just wishing to wipe them away, hatred, all of that. How can you ever actually arrive at peace? So I think it does link into that question, that thing from the Beatitudes about being peacemakers and how can we even do that? And the very smallest start is to pray for them, pray for their good, you know, and pray that they would come to know God, those sorts of things. I do think there's another interesting way to approach this passage, which is to ask, going back to, you've heard it said,

But does the Old Testament, for example, say, does it ever explicitly say that we should hate our enemies? You know, I can think of, for example, in Psalm 139, 19 to 22, you've got that passage that says, If only you God would slay the wicked away from me, you who are bloodthirsty, they speak of you with evil intent, your adversaries misuse your name.

Do I not hate those who hate you, Lord, and abhor those who are in rebellion against you? I have nothing but hatred for them. I count them my enemies." So that's a slightly different discussion though, isn't it? Because it's about, you know, maybe it was Jesus is addressing a misinterpretation like about God's character. So God hates evil, but he doesn't tell us to hate others.

He calls us to be peacemakers. And I do think that's an interesting way of approaching it. And he points out, you know, if we're imitators of God, God, it talks in this passage about common grace. The sun shines on the good as well as the evil. There's provision for all of us. So if God is good to everyone, even those who are evil and are in rebellion against him, how much more would we be called as imitators of him?

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to be good even to those who are not good to us. Yeah, it's interesting that Jesus says, you've heard that it was said, love your friends, hate your enemies, but we're just assuming that that it was said means assuming in the Old Testament. Yeah. But that's not necessarily the case, is it? No, but he's obviously correcting some impression that people have from somewhere. And I think it's interesting that he talks about reward as well. What reward is there?

in loving those who love you, acknowledging those who are already in your tribe, on your side. What do you expect to get from that? So there's something about people's attitudes and how they treat others as well, isn't there? And what they expect from that. Oh, I'm a good person because, yeah. Will Barron Yeah, that's interesting in those verses, you know, why would God reward you if you love only the people who love you?

Jesus is sort of expanding our circle of concern, isn't he? So it's not just about who you owe something to. It's really about whom you can help. My mind goes back to the Good Samaritan actually, to the parable of the Good Samaritan. And Martin Luther King used that parable in a very famous sermon that he preached once. And

he just compared the attitude of the Samaritan with the attitudes of the priests and the Levites. And, you know, he said it was a dangerous road, it was called the bloody road. And the priests and the Levites, to the man who'd been attacked lying there, and they thought, if I stop to help him, what will happen to me? I might be, you know, attacked by the same bandits or whatever. But the Samaritan, when he came along, looked at the man who'd been attacked and said,

if I do not stop to help him, what will happen to him? And it's a completely different attitude, it's a completely different approach to people in need. It's not, do I have the obligation to help this person? It's, do I have the opportunity to help this person? Yeah, that's really good. It really shows, doesn't it, the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives. I think sometimes, you know, and really the end of this passage gets to this, how,

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hard it is to live up to these standards, how can we be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. But I think as Christians, we're not actually being asked to do this alone, are we? We've got the Holy Spirit cultivating these fruits of the Spirit in us, helping us to be loving and kind and patient and forgiving and thinking of others more than ourselves, which does not come naturally to us, but it's the Spirit of God at work in us.

I don't think it's very common now, but there was quite a common doctrine in Protestant churches, the doctrine of sinless perfection, you know, that you could actually pull yourself up by your bootstraps and be perfect. It was quite common in Methodism at one time, I know. But I guess it comes back to what we're being called to do is to be imitators of Christ who was perfect.

I don't think I would go along with that doctrine. I know I won't ever achieve sinless perfection myself in this life. But I nevertheless will continue to try to imitate Christ and to repent of those things that I've done wrong, you know, and to accept the grace that is there for me in Christ. All right, I think we're going to wrap it up there. We have...

talked about a lot of different things in this episode and gone quite a lot of places. So if you have questions, we'd love for you to send them in. We can send them in to biblesociety .org .uk forward slash rooted questions. And we'll have an episode at the end of this series answering as many of those as we can. Yeah, thanks for listening. We're really glad that you're here and we love having these discussions and we will see you in our next episode.

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Rooted Podcast. To find out more about Bible Society's mission, to invite people to discover the Bible for themselves in England, Wales and around the world, visit biblesociety .org .uk.