The Rooted Podcast

(00:04.174)
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Rooted Podcast. I'm Noel and I'm here again with Mark and Esther. We're continuing our look at the book of Daniel today. We're going to look at chapter four, which is the story of Nebuchadnezzar and his humbling. We're to work out the key message of the story, what it's saying, what it means for us today, and then chat a bit about also an interesting topic of how much of the Bible maybe should be taken literally.

Before we get started, if you love the podcast and would like to leave us a review, you can do that. We would love that. You can also comment if you're listening on Spotify or YouTube. And you can send us in your questions to biblesociety .org .uk forward slash rooted questions if you have any. And that's it. Let's get into it. So we're looking at chapter four, this really interesting story of Nebuchadnezzar, one of the kings that is in the book of Daniel. So basically, just to summarize the story, Nebuchadnezzar has a dream.

And in this dream, well, he doesn't know this when he has the dream, but he sees a big tree and then an angel comes and says that the tree is going to be chopped down. And when he has this dream, he's very disturbed by it and he calls in all of his sort of philosophers and fortune tellers and people who can explain the dream to him. And they come in and no one's able to explain the dream. So then he calls Daniel in and Daniel does explain the dream.

And he says that Nebuchadnezzar himself is the tree in the dream. And that tree in the dream, while at the beginning it's very big and grand and prospering, that Nebuchadnezzar as a king is going to be cut down and he's going to be humbled. And so this is a warning that Nebuchadnezzar is given by Daniel. But we find that later in the story, he does not pay attention to the warning. And I'm going to read from verse 28 and we'll find out what happens to

All this did happen to King Nebuchadnezzar. Only 12 months later, while he was walking about on the roof of his royal palace in Babylon, he said, look how great Babylon is. I built it as my capital city to display my power and might, my glory and majesty. Before the words were out of his mouth, a voice spoke from heaven. King Nebuchadnezzar, listen to what I say. Your royal power is now taken away from you. You will be driven away from human society.

(02:26.454)
live with wild animals and eat grass like an ox for seven years. Then you will acknowledge that the supreme God has power over human kingdoms and that he can give them to anyone he chooses. The words came true immediately. Nebuchadnezzar was driven out of human society and ate grass like an ox. The dew fell on his body and his hair grew as long as eagle's feathers and his nails as long as bird's claws. So it's a very interesting story and we find that

the warning given to Nebuchadnezzar does come true and this happens to him. What do we think kind of the main takeaway from this story is? think I would like to go backwards, so I will start with one of the early church fathers, whose name was Irenaeus. And in one of his books, he says, the only true and steadfast teacher, the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, through His transcendent love, became what we

that he might bring us to be what he is himself. So, the idea is that Christ came to kind of restore us to the true image of God, to make us God -like. Okay, so it's quite a challenging way of talking about it. And the point is that Nebuchadnezzar, because of his pride and his rebellion and his rejection of God,

sort of drops off the other end of the scale. So instead of being God -like, he becomes animal -like. So he loses that part of humanity which makes him the image of God. He loses it altogether and he becomes like an animal. And I think that this story tells us something about our relationship with God and what it's like when we turn our backs on him.

we try and put ourselves in His place. When I was reading it, I was kind of seeing shades of the Tower of Babel, you know, from Genesis 11, that idea that these people were trying to build this tower into the heavens to be like God. And then, of course, God scatters them. They can't understand each other. They stop building the tower because they can't work together on it. And it's a similar idea, like the description of this tree.

(04:47.138)
that is meant to be Nebuchadnezzar. The tree grew and became strong. Its top reached to heaven and it was visible to the end of the whole earth. Its leaves were beautiful and its fruit abundant and in it was food for all. The beasts of the field found shade under it and the birds of the heavens lived in its branches and all flesh was fed from it. It's kind of growing to this point that it's like the tree is providing things instead of God.

then this tree is chopped down and the true provider is shown to be God. So yeah, I think that's sort of that idea of humbling the proud and showing the true source of power and authority in the world as God. Yeah, there's another bit in Acts chapter 12 as well where King Herod

He's wearing his royal robes and he's speaking to the people and they're terribly impressed and they say, the voice of a god and not a man. And he thinks this is absolutely fantastic. And it says, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down and he was eaten by worms and died. You know, these things never end well, do they? These sort of acts of rebellion, this putting ourselves in the place of

So I think there are a things that are interesting about the story when we read it. The first one is that it's coming from Nebuchadnezzar's voice. So we've suddenly changed and this is now Nebuchadnezzar talking to us and telling us his own story. Why do you think that this has suddenly changed? So yeah, it sort of goes from the previous style, I guess, Daniel or whoever wrote it, kind of recording things that happened. But

It is still a record, but this is like it's a letter. It's not just Nebuchadnezzar's voice. He's writing to all the peoples and nations and telling them about this thing that happened. And right there in those early verses, he tells them God is great basically right at the start. And then he said, well, and here's what happened to me. This is how I'm, you know, my experience of that and why I'm telling you this. We've got

(06:58.734)
kind of record here of something that happened in that time. It's more powerful, I suppose, hearing it from Nebuchadnezzar himself. I mean, that's the true mark of someone who's been humbled is that they admit that rather than someone else saying, this happened to them and it humbled them. He's saying, it happened to me. Yeah. And then considering that we have this sort of firsthand account of this thing that has happened to Nebuchadnezzar,

Then reading the story, there are parts of it where you think, because you're reading it, did this actually happen? Did he actually become animal -like, live sort of in seclusion, we imagine, for seven years or whatever it was? We don't know where he was living, but it says he was eating grass and just completely inhuman, it seems he becomes.

it kind of strikes the question in me of am I to be taking this literally? Am I to think, yes, this actually happened to Nebuchadnezzar as he's telling me this has happened? Yeah, I think that's really interesting actually, another way of looking at it is to say, you know, these stories, they've got a historical core, but maybe another way of looking at it is to say, well, you know, somebody is kind of riffing on that. You know, that's why we get the different voices, for instance, the third person and the first person.

it sort of swaps between the two. But maybe one way of looking at it is to say there are parts of it which are more like a historical novel, perhaps, than actual literal history. So they take a historical core and kind of flip it and expand on it and apply imagination. And maybe it's that sort of writing. I'm perfectly happy to believe that Nebuchadnezzar did have this kind of

breakdown in which he is broken down to become this really sad figure. But I don't think I'm obliged to think so. I mean, I'm comfortable seeing it the other way as well. Yeah. I mean, I guess I'd ask why couldn't this have happened? I don't have a problem with believing that something definitely happened to him. And I mean, well, I know that people will have looked into, is there any historical evidence at all to corroborate this?

(09:18.766)
I mean, it's such a long time ago, we clearly don't have full historical records. But what do we have? Well, I can perhaps fill in one or two historical records actually there because there is something. It does, I think, bear on this. And it's a document found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. So it goes back a long way. they think that that document, which is sort of second century BC,

was copied from an earlier one. So, you know, it goes back a long way. It's the prayer of Nabonidus, and Nabonidus was the successor of King Nebuchadnezzar. So, the prayer of Nabonidus, again, it's first person, I was afflicted with an evil ulcer for seven years, and I was driven far from men until I prayed for the Most High God and an exorcist

pardon my sins. He was a Jew from among the children of the exile of Judah." How about that? That's incredible. That doesn't map completely onto this story of Nebuchadnezzar. So, for instance, is Nabonidus, it's not Nebuchadnezzar. It talks about an ulcer, whereas the biblical story doesn't talk about an ulcer, but it does talk about him being driven

away far from men for seven years. So that maps onto the story. And so, you know, it just, it just makes me think, well, maybe that was the story which was known by the author of Daniel. And as I say, maybe he's sort of riffing on that and, and doing something a bit different with it. You know, we're never going to know basically, are we? But I

interesting thing is that there was this tradition of a Babylonian king who was afflicted by this terrible affliction, whatever it was, and who was healed by a Jew from the people of Judah. And I just think that's absolutely fascinating. guess I wonder, does it change how you guys read the story at all? Or does it change how you would let the story impact you if you were to say,

(11:38.976)
I read this more as if it's a historical novel, meaning that there's fiction in it. Does that bother you at all? I feel like some people, they might read something in the Bible and go, this didn't actually happen. So then how can I let it affect me? How can I let it impact me? That might kind of be frustrating for some. Do you guys find that? I think that is a thought that many people who aren't sure about faith in God have.

and reading the Bible and encountering stories like this and thinking, I'm not sure or just the fact that you may never be able to know for sure. So then what do do with that story? Do you discount it completely or do you take the heart of the message? Now, obviously what Mark was saying earlier about, well, what's the big theme or the big point of it? I think that still rings true. Whether this happened exactly as it says or not, it illustrates something.

That is true that God is God and humans are not God. And when we start to put ourselves in the place of God, inevitably things will happen in our lives that show us that we're not in control, that we're not the one who's doing everything. And it leads us then to have to respond in some way to either turn to God and say, actually, I need you or well, what's the alternative?

There is a symbolic element to this story because it starts out as a vision of a tree which is symbolically Nebuchadnezzar. And it is a picture first, then we get this sort of confirmation somehow with what actually happens to Nebuchadnezzar, whatever that was. But both the picture and the circumstances make the same point to him, that he must acknowledge God.

Yeah. I 100 % agree with that. I think that's really well thought out actually. I am very comfortable with the idea that there's a lot of symbolism in here and, you know, the historical novel illustration, I'm comfortable with that. But at the same time, I'm uncomfortable with the idea or I think we need to be really careful about the idea that you can just sort of un -more.

(14:03.542)
all stories in the Bible from their historical origins, because I don't think you can do that. I mean, think it really matters that some of the things really happened, you know, that some things were really true. I'm very comfortable with miracle stories, for instance. You know, I wouldn't sort of write something off just because it's a weird story, anything like that. I think it's just important to pay attention, to pay really close attention to the kind

writing it is, to the kind of literature it is, and to respect that as you try and as you try to understand it really. But I think, mean, totally agree with you Esther, I think the lesson is absolutely the same. If you don't want to be turned into an animal or eaten by worms or something like that, don't set yourself up against God. It never ends well.

Well, I think it's interesting as well. In your summary, Noel, we missed out verse 27, which is actually sort of an interjection from Daniel. He's interpreted the dream, but then he gives Nebuchadnezzar some counsel. And what he says is, O King, let my counsel be acceptable to you. Break off your sins by practicing righteousness and your iniquities by showing mercy to the oppressed.

that there may perhaps be a lengthening of your prosperity. And I thought that was an interesting, maybe it adds some detail there. You know, because it's not just that his pride then, Daniel seems to observe and be singling out, your ways are not righteous and you're oppressing the poor, you're not showing mercy. So again, those are things that we can take on board ourselves if we're doing

I like that that's here because that's a through line through Scripture, isn't it? Being merciful to the poor, God cares about that sort of a thing. So it's interesting that we find it even here in the middle of Daniel. It's not like it's just something we see in the Gospels or in sort of other Old Testament books, but we see it here as well. I can't remember if it's in Malachi or Micah. I always get them mixed up. What does the Lord require of you but to do justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God?

(16:28.75)
So that is like a 6 -8, isn't it? think. You're with it. Very good. Yeah. So looking at the story, there's lots of interesting context we can look at. The story itself is really interesting to read. But how do you think that we take this into today in our own lives? Certainly we read the story and if we were going to apply it to ourselves, it can actually be a bit scary because who wants to be humbled to the extent that Nebuchadnezzar gets humbled in this story?

So what do you guys think about that? What does this mean for us today? There should be, I guess, an uncomfortable element to this in a way. Because, I mean, just like people struggle with the idea of being judged, know, somebody standing over them in judgment, God or anyone, even if you are a Christian, it doesn't necessarily fit in with a way that we think of Him most of the time to think that He

a lesson, you if someone said, I'm going through this because I'm being punished or I'm being humbled by God, I think I might be wary of that interpretation. In this story, obviously, the way that it's communicated to us, we get a vision from God, we get an interpretation from God, and then something happens. So there's this clear sense of this is from God.

Yeah, in terms of our own lives and things that are happening to us, I don't think we like the idea of thinking that God might single us out and humiliate us.

I think partially I hear that and I understand. But I guess the question is, or part of the question I ask is, do I think that God does that? Whether or not I would like it, do I think that he does that? Because part of me wonders if as a Christian I could look at that as an opportunity. For example, maybe you guys disagree, tell me, but maybe God could apply a pressure to my life, like something that's going on that I have to work through, whether that's at church or that's at work or that's somewhere else.

(18:28.718)
If I don't have these sorts of pressures, you could say that they're people. If I don't have certain people, certain pressures, certain situations come up in my life, I'm not growing, am I? If things are just all clear. So I think that, at least for me, I don't believe that if something happens in my life that's difficult, I'm always saying, that's either the enemy or that is me messing up. But sometimes I think that it could actually be the Lord maybe giving me an opportunity to grow.

And I think sometimes you see that when you're looking back, don't you? You know, go through this really difficult time and you think, well, actually, this did such and such and such and such in my life, and I am better or stronger or wiser because of this. But you might not see it at the time. But I do also agree with your language, Esther, that I don't think it's ever supposed to be punishment. And we do see compassion, I think, from God, even in this story, because

You know, it's compassionate to warn Nebuchadnezzar of where he's going wrong. It says that, isn't it like a year later after he's received this warning and unfortunately he hasn't taken it on board. His pride reaches a peak and then this thing happens. But it's not like God then says, and you will be a beast of the field forever. You know, he doesn't leave him in that situation. There is a restoration that comes out of it. But yeah, I

I agree with you, Noel. I think that whatever we go through, there's always an opportunity to see God at work in it and to turn to Him in some ways or to rely on Him to change our path. So in that sense, I think you can say, yeah, God is teaching us and giving us opportunities to respond to Him all the time. But I think a story like this, know, because it makes you think of another story in the Bible, Job.

You know, actually, Job, he's not like Nebuchadnezzar, he's an upright man. But this figure called the Satan comes along and says to God, you know, he only worships you because you've given him all of these great things. If you took that away, he would curse you, basically. And God allows this, you know, he allows this experiment to go forth. And Job suffers, you know, extreme suffering there.

(20:56.94)
That's an incredible book of the Bible, isn't it, to see how he grapples with God and with his situation. You know, he does turn to God. He's basically like, you are the only one that I can turn to to vindicate me. But he's not like Nebuchadnezzar. He's a different kind of person. So yeah, I think both stories are really interesting. Neither of them are comfortable.

The one that occurs to me as a sort of parallel is the one in the New Testament, where it's in Matthew, Mark and Luke about the man who is possessed by a legion of demons, you know, and he again is completely lost to himself. He's barely human. He lives among the tombs and he cuts and beats himself. And then there's this wonderful picture when Jesus has healed him that he's found clothed and in his right mind and sitting at the feet of Jesus.

And I always found that incredibly moving, actually. Just that picture of somebody who, again, is just sort of off the scale. If you have truly perfectly human image of God at one end of the scale, an animal at the other end of the scale, that's where that man was as well. And God sort of moves him from one end of the scale to the other, as he does in the end with Nebuchadnezzar.

The other thing that it does to me about this is just going back to his attitude of mind, which is of pride and rebellion and all that sort of thing. That is what moves him closer to the inhuman, to the animal end of the spectrum. So you can imagine, I don't know, rich and powerful and talented and beautiful people

with who are proud because they have a lot to be proud of. And you might look at them, I don't know, on Instagram or something like that. Think of an Instagram influencer and you think, wow, if only I could be like that person. But they are, you know, they're at the wrong end of the scale. I mean, I don't know what they're like as individuals, obviously, and they might be perfectly nice people. But, know, their persona

(23:20.424)
is of somebody to be admired and to be liked and to be, you know, to be imitated, but they're at the wrong end of the scale. And the people who are most Christ -like are the humble people. And they're at the Christ end of the scale, you know. I mean, we talked about humility in our Philippians edition.

and, you know, there's the Christ hymn in Philippians 2. We talked a lot about it there, and being like Christ is being humble, and that's what

At the end of the days, I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever. For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, and His kingdom endures from generation to generation. All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and He does according to His will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the

none can stay his hand or say to him, what have you done? At the same time, my reason returned to me and for the glory of my kingdom, my majesty and splendor returned to me. My counselors and my Lord sought me and I was established in my kingdom and still more greatness was added to me. Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven.

For all his works are right and his ways are just, and those who walk in pride he is able to humble. It's amazing. I think it's a contrast to what we saw in the story of the fiery furnace where Nebuchadnezzar acknowledges that Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego's God is the most supreme, has power. But here it's much more a sort of acknowledgement.

(25:28.63)
almost that he's praising that God, that that God has become something to him. It's more personal, I guess. Yeah, it mirrors so many people's faith journey, doesn't it? When they come to Christ, for example, when they accept Jesus as their savior, there's a huge freedom in that, restoration. All of your sins have been forgiven. And just like you've got Nebuchadnezzar

writing this that he wants to tell everyone. He's not just maybe become a believer in the Most High God or that God has become something to him, but he's a witness. He's a witness to the power of this God. Just like, you know, if you're a Christian, you're called to be a witness to others, to share that good news, to preach the gospel. So, yeah, I find there's such an ancient story and very much Old Testament.

It really makes me think of Jesus, you know, and how Jesus is God and it's all part of God's plan, His redemption plan. Yeah, so good. We're going to wrap there. So thank you Mark and Esther for another good conversation. We'll be back next week with another episode on Belshazzar, which will be very interesting. In the meantime, leave us a review if you'd like, comment, send in your questions.

We'd love to hear from you and we will see you next week.

(27:03.406)
Thanks for listening to this episode of The Rooted Podcast. To find out more about Bible Society's mission to invite people to discover the Bible for themselves in England, Wales and around the world, visit biblesociety .org .uk.