How do we listen to God? – The Shema series E2
Download MP3It should be mind blowing to us the fact that God who created everything, who is sovereign over everything, actually listens to us and cares what we say.
Noël:There are so many instances in which different Bible people hear from God in dreams as well. Is it actually easier for God to get to me when my guard is down a bit? When I'm dreaming, there's nothing I can do. There's no way I can sort of reason myself out of, is this God speaking? And I wonder if there's this idea that it's a place where God can speak, when sometimes when our guard is up as humans, we would shut him out.
Mark:I wonder how often we should expect God to speak to us personally, individually. I suppose I tend to think that most of our Christian life is is fairly ordinary, actually.
Noël:Hello, everyone. Welcome back to The Rooted Podcast. I'm Noël, and I'm here again with Mark and Esther for the second episode in our Shema series. So we're continuing this series in which we think about the biblical understanding of listening and how according to Scripture listening and obedience go hand in hand. Today, we're going to look at two stories, one in the Old Testament and one in the New, in which people hear God's voice and either respond to what he says, and we're going to see the ways in which they do. And we're going to see how we can learn from them, learn from both ancient Israel and also the early Church. So really looking forward to getting into this.
Noël:We thought we'd start by talking about how the foundation of our relationship with God is that he listens to us. If he wasn't listening, what would prayer mean? What would it be? What would the point of it be? But he is listening to us. And that's sort of where this all starts. And Esther wrote about this in the Rooted Journal.
Esther:Yeah. I mean, it was great to be asked to write those reflections because it should be mind blowing to us the fact that God who created everything, who's sovereign over everything, actually listens to us and cares what we say. And in the journal, so some of the stories that we looked at, we looked at like Abraham interceding over Sodom and Gomorrah with God. So a really complicated tricky story, but there's so much in there that's really interesting to look at. We looked at like God responding to Solomon's prayer when he was dedicating the temple and the kind of promises and affirmations that he received from God in that response.
Esther:We also did look at some examples from the New Testament. Jesus asking questions of his disciples and how, you know, what's the significance of him listening to their responses? Why do we have those stories in Scripture and what do they say to us today? And how do they encourage us in our own relationship with God? And that's, you know, when you said it's the foundation of our relationship with God that he listens to us, I completely agree with that.
Esther:And I think, you know, the more we get to know him in this two-way conversation, the more we listen to him speaking, respond to him, yeah, as we get to know him, we can trust him more. And we've talked so many times about that connection between listening and obedience. And it's only as we come to trust him that we really can obey him even when it's costly.
Noël:Yes. Yeah. It's really important as a starting point that that is a relationship in which both parties are listening. Yeah. I love that.
Noël:So God is listening to us, and we're also listening to him. And his people in the Old Testament listened to him. We're going to look at an Old Testament passage, 1 Samuel 3. If you're listening and you want to turn with us, this is a pretty well known story of the Lord calling Samuel when he's just a boy. So I'm going to read part of the story and then we're going to see what we can learn from Samuel.
Noël:So reading 1 Samuel 3, starting in verse 1. The boy Samuel ministered before the Lord under Eli. And in those days, the word of the Lord was rare. There were not many visions. One night Eli, whose eyes were becoming so weak that he could barely see, was lying down in his usual place. The lamp of the God had not yet gone out, and Samuel was lying down in the house of the Lord, where the ark of God was. Then the Lord called Samuel. Samuel answered, here I am. And he ran to Eli and said, here I am. You called me. But Eli said, I did not call. Go back and lie down. So he went and lay down. And again the Lord called Samuel. And Samuel got up and went to Eli and said, here I am. You called me. My son, Eli said, I did not call. Go back and lie down. Now Samuel did not yet know the Lord. The word of the Lord had not yet been revealed to him. A third time the Lord called Samuel. And Samuel got up and went to Eli and said, here I am, you called me. And then Eli realised that the Lord was calling the boy. So Eli told Samuel, go and lie down, and if he calls you, say, speak, Lord, for your servant is listening. So Samuel went and lay down in his place. The Lord came and stood there calling us the other time, Samuel, Samuel. And then Samuel said, speak for your servant is listening.
Noël:The Lord goes on to tell Samuel something that he wants Samuel to tell Eli, which is a very difficult thing to tell Eli. The story ends brilliantly because Samuel does tell Eli. And the very end of the passage says, the Lord was with Samuel as he grew up, and he let none of Samuel's words fall to the ground.
Noël:And so Samuel becomes a prophet. So this is a beautiful story. I think one of the really striking things about it right from the start is the fact that well, firstly, God is speaking to Samuel in an audible voice, which we would consider one of the more rare ways in which God speaks, at least for most Christians that I've talked to today. There are many ways that God speaks in the Bible. This is just one of them.
Noël:And the second, I guess, interesting thing is that he can't discern God's voice, and the passage tells us that he doesn't yet know God. So the Bible seems to be saying that there is something of knowing God that helps us to recognise his voice. So what do you think? What is the significance of this passage? What what are the some of the things that we can pull from it when it comes to discernment, how God speaks, how we listen?
Esther:Well, I definitely think that Eli plays quite a key role, doesn't he, in helping? You know, he sort of realises this must be God, it's not me. Like, I don't know that Samuel necessarily thought that's Eli's voice, but perhaps he was just like, well, that's the only person it could be. It must be him because who else is here? So yeah, it's a really important like, I don't know if it's the right word to use of like awakening, but a new awareness of God and how God can speak to him and is reaching out to speak to him.
Mark:I thought it was interesting how Samuel is the child here, isn't he? You know, maybe somebody like Eli would just think, oh, well, this isn't how God speaks. But a child has no reason to think that this isn't how God speaks. So you know, is much more receptive in that way. I suppose the other thing is that it's interesting that he's it's a nighttime thing.
Mark:And Samuel is in bed, possibly asleep or semi-asleep . And there are so many stories that I've heard just over the last, well, a couple of years, I suppose, really, people hearing God's voice in dreams. And particularly, you know, how significant this is, I don't know, but particularly, people from Middle Eastern backgrounds, and particularly Iranian backgrounds. They have just heard God speak or seen Jesus in a dream, and that's been really powerful and meaningful for them.
Noël:Yeah, and it happens throughout Scripture, doesn't it? There are so many instances in which different Bible people hear from God in dreams as well. So when it happens today, we know that that is a way that he speaks. And, yeah, we see that in this passage. Even though it isn't a dream, it's happening in the night.
Noël:I thought about this before of, is it actually easier for God to get to me when my guard is down a bit? And our guard is down at night, isn't it? When I'm dreaming, there's nothing I can do. There's no way I can sort of reason myself out of, is this God speaking to me? Is he not speaking to me?
Noël:Because when I wake up in the morning, I've had dreams where I felt that God has significantly spoken to me, but I know what I dreamt, and that's sort of it. And I wonder if sometimes I've wondered reading the passages in Scripture where God speaks through a dream, if there are times when someone like Jacob, his guard is down and Jacob's a deceiver and he's not really doing well. But God speaks to him in a dream, doesn't he? And I wonder if there's this idea that it's a place where God can speak, when sometimes when our guard is up as humans, we would would shut him out.
Mark:Or we come to him with an agenda. I think this is such a good point, Noël. But we we come to him with an agenda, you know, maybe a list of things to ask him or stuff like that. And then when when the guard is down, as you say, there isn't the agenda and we're just much more open and much more receptive.
Noël:Yeah. And I guess I suppose when we're sleeping, we can't argue back with him or anything. It's just him speaking to us.
Esther:Yeah. I do think your question about discernment is important though. I mean, the word that God speaks to Samuel, the difficult message that he asks him to pass on to Eli, is consistent with his law, which he's given to his people. And it's it sort of makes sense that God would be saying that. It's hard for Samuel as a young boy to tell his master or the person who is teaching him this difficult message, but it's consistent with God's character and his word as he would have known it.
Esther:And I think sometimes, well, or for example, what you said Mark about people from Iran or Middle Eastern background having a vision of Jesus. They or hearing audibly go and read the Bible, when they go to that word and they read about this Jesus who they've seen, or they read the word, it's consistent, like between the vision, the words, and what they then find in this book. I've definitely been encouraged a lot in my faith that I should be asking God to speak to me more and I should be listening in a very sort of open way and inviting the Holy Spirit to sort of act and hearing, seeing things. And I've always worried that, well, what if it's not really from God? Am I opening myself up in a way that's really vulnerable?
Esther:And I think we probably can think of instances where people have said, God, I really believe God's told me this. And you're thinking, I'm not so sure. And part of Christian community then is to go to the word and be like, okay, let's look at this and then let's look at what we know of God's word and his character. Is it consistent? But yeah.
Mark:I think the other thing just to come in on this, the other thing is where somebody will say that they have heard from God, that they've had a word from God or something. And because they have, you know, a particular spiritual position in a church community, or maybe that particular dominant personality or something, they can lead people off in very unhealthy directions, directions, you know, I mean, they can be very damaging, because they're telling people they have this hotline to God, they have this direct line to God. And of course, they don't. In some cases, they might even believe it. But I think this is where real spiritual abuse starts, where somebody says, I've heard from God, and because I've heard from God, you can't really question what I say.
Mark:And that's where the real need for discernment comes in. You know, you test it against what you know of the Bible, you test it by what you know about Christian living and just the difference between right and wrong, basically. And we shouldn't let ourselves be led astray like this. But all too often we are. People do get sucked into things that they shouldn't.
Esther:Yeah, and I guess you have to look at the fruit of that. And thankfully, you know, it's not all over once you've followed someone perhaps down, not the godly path you were hoping when you set out on it. You know, there's so much grace isn't there, we can get back on track. But it does need the whole church and it does need discernment and discipline, I think, and guts from Christians to bring that back when it has gone wrong.
Noël:Yeah. I think accountability is really important. Yeah. And I was thinking about the importance of Eli in the story because even when Samuel comes to him with the word, Eli says to him, tell me everything God said and don't hold anything back. And so Eli's leadership in that is actually really strong and to encourage Samuel.
Noël:I was also thinking though, just to caveat everything we've just said, I was thinking about Abraham when God asks him to sacrifice Isaac. There's a really good example of a time when God has asked someone to do something that's absolutely crazy. Or even to think about Noah and the ark. And those are two moments where people have to say yes to God when if they would have brought it to someone else, that person would have likely said, no, you shouldn't do that. I'm not sure that was God.
Noël:I do think those are the exceptions. And I would say in normal Christian life today, I would say that we need accountability. And that would be my go to. But there also are times when God does ask us to do things that to people will seem not. They will go against culture or against what we would usually do. And so that really throws things into a mix, doesn't it?
Esther:Well, and when you read like in Hebrews, the chapter about faith where it talks about Abraham and his response to, you know, that crazy request. The way that it sort of explains it then is that Abraham sort of believed that God could bring Isaac back to life. And Noah obviously had a level of trust in God that he believed, he knows that God is the judge. He's like, Well, if God says he's going to do this thing and he's asking me to build an ark, A, I believe he can send a flood. Yeah.
Esther:And B, okay, I'm going to do what he said. So there's sort of like a trust that comes in there. And A, they know God to a certain degree and that is part of them agreeing or obeying basically even those things. But yeah, I definitely hope they are the exceptions. I hope God doesn't ask me to do something quite like that.
Mark:I wonder how often we should expect God to speak to us, you know, personally, individually, sometimes. Mean, I think something depends on the particular church culture that you have, I think, as well as your particular sort of personal disposition. I think in some churches, it's very, you know, it's very common for people to talk like this. And, you know, people will say, well, I felt God was saying this to me or that to me. And in other churches, it's just not.
Mark:And that's not to say it's not true, obviously. It's just interesting to think about how we're actually understanding this kind of thing. You know, from my point of view, I suppose I tend to think that, you know, most of our lives, most of our Christian life is fairly ordinary, actually. And, you know, we shouldn't expect God to sort of speak in a sort of an audible voice or a sort of lightning stroke from heaven. We just sort of, I don't know, just sort of get on with it really, don't we?
Mark:And, you know, we go to church Sunday by Sunday, we hear some good sermons hopefully, and we read our Bibles and we pray, and we're sort of led gently through life rather than being ordered this way or that. Yeah. But maybe that's just me because I have a friend who just seems to be really really sensitive to the voice of God. And she will quite often actually say, well, I just felt it was right to do this or do that. And then there'll be an encounter with somebody that she wasn't really expecting at all.
Mark:Like the other day, she went out for an early morning run. And she she said, well, I just felt I should go down this street rather than that street. Well, on that particular street, there was a man in a doorway all sort of huddled over and not looking very well. This was about six in the morning. So she stopped and said, are you alright?
Mark:And he said, yes. Thank you. And she was struck by the thank you and ended up just getting into a conversation with him and taking him off somewhere to try and find a cup of coffee and and generally trying to help him sort his life out a bit. But she said that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't done what I felt that I ought to do and just gone down that particular street. That sort of thing is always happening to her.
Mark:So, you know, maybe I'm just over-skeptical here. Maybe I should learn something from this. I don't know.
Noël:Yeah. I've been thinking about John the Baptist recently, when he's in prison, and he sends his disciples to Jesus to say, are you really the Messiah? Are you the one that God has sent? And I always think about this is John the Baptist basically going, is this it? Like, and you'll think that John the Baptist would have have read the Old Testament of fire coming down from heaven and all these kind of sort of wild things happening.
Noël:And then the Messiah is a travelling rabbi who heals a few people, and you could see him as not being very unique. And I think John is going, is this everything? And I sometimes think about that in the Christian life where I'm like, you know, is this it? And we read the New Testament, people falling out of windows and getting raised from the dead and all of this sort of thing. And not to say that God can't do that and doesn't do that today because I believe that he does.
Noël:But what Jesus says to John the Baptist is, you know, the sick are healed, the lame walk, and blessed are those who don't take offense at me. And I think it's a it's a message of if I speak to you audibly or I don't, or you see crazy things or you don't, you know, you have these experiences like Mark's friend or you don't, blessed are those who don't take offense at the way in which I speak or the way in which I come, which sometimes is difficult because I want to see wild things. Yeah.
Noël:Maybe we should move on to our New Testament passage. So we're going to read a story in Acts 5, in which the apostles are brought before the Sanhedrin, and we see them act boldly. So Mark's going to read that for us.
Mark:Yeah, this is Acts 5, beginning of verse 27. And it says, having brought the apostles, they made them appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. We gave you strict orders not to teach in his name, he said. Yet you filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man's blood, that is Jesus's blood. Peter and the other apostles replied, we must obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree.
Mark:This bit finishes, we are witnesses of these things and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.
Noël:Yeah. We wanted to touch on this passage because it is a very powerful moment of, I think so it's Peter and the other apostles replied, we must obey God rather than human beings. I think it's quite significant that Peter is mentioned because we know that when Jesus was on the earth, Peter listened, he heard, but he didn't obey when he when he denied Jesus. And yet here we see him so boldly saying, I have to listen to God rather than to men. So we see a big transformation in Peter.
Noël:But I thought this was interesting, just the significance of the idea of listening to people rather than listening to God, because that is something that we face as Christians quite often. And I think this is a really good example of even though they're risking their lives, they are listening to the voice of God and obeying him regardless of what it's going to cost them. So I think there's a lot of depth in here in thinking about listening and obeying, especially when we have pressure from other people.
Esther:Yeah. I was just thinking about that as you were explaining why we've gone to this passage. I guess the difference for Peter because I mean, before Peter denied Jesus, he was one of those, you know, he was the one that Jesus asked, who do you say I am? And he said, you're the Messiah. And that was before he denied Jesus.
Esther:So he knew who he was. So what was it that made him deny Jesus? I don't think it was just I mean, I think yes, he wasn't obeying God in that moment, but I think fear was the factor that was overwhelming him. He was thinking, well Jesus – he's there in that courtyard. He's being questioned like he's going to be executed. I don't want that to happen to me.
Esther:This is a really similar situation. He's in front of the council being threatened, you know, stop preaching this message. And I think he's learnt from what happened before. And now he knows that there's something greater than his fear and he's seeing God's power at work.
Esther:At the beginning of Acts, we see the explosion of people believing and joining this church, this body of believers. And he doesn't seem to be afraid here any more. And I think to your point about, well, what does this mean for us? You know, when we face pressure and fear. Yeah, we may not get it right first time, but I think Peter is such an encouraging person to follow in Scripture when we think about, yeah, we can become bold. We can obey even if we didn't always in the past.
Noël:Yeah. And I think it's a really good reminder too of the fact that listening requires faith. Mhmm. Because yeah. I was just thinking about how, in a way, God telling us to do something is quite a gift because it means that we have an opportunity to either have faith and do the thing or not.
Noël:And if he didn't do that and I don't just mean I don't just mean an audible command. I don't just mean, I even mean looking at scripture because God is speaking through his word, isn't he? And every time I read it and I'm convicted by it and I, and I have an opportunity to either go, I'm going to have faith and do this thing or I'm not going to. And just the gift of that that he gives to us. He gives us again and again so many opportunities to have faith and to listen and to obey. Just think that's a gift.
Esther:It's quite a challenge as well though, isn't it? Because if, I grew up in the church, I can definitely think ... Well, and I really loved reading my Bible and I received a lot of teaching on the Bible. But there were definitely key points growing up where it's not that I didn't know what God required of me, but I chose not to obey. I chose to do it my own way. And yeah, that didn't work out too well for me.
Esther:But that also is kind of part of the journey with God and part of this two-way conversation, isn't it? Is you do learn through those experiences of being like, yeah, I disobeyed God. There's so much in the Bible, you know, this whole conversation that starts with, you know, the people that become Israel, and then it's opened out to everyone, like the big story of Scripture. It's a conversation going on all the way, and there are just repeated calls like, turn to me, repent, and receive what I'm giving you. Like, they are opportunities to listen and obey, aren't they? And to receive not just like random blessings, but eternal life, salvation.
Noël:Well, I think these are two really good stories that just remind us what hearing from God can look like and be like, and then what it is for us to respond, how that takes faith to obey him. I think James says it really well in James 1.22 . He says, do not merely listen to the word, but do what it says. I think that sums up our conversation quite well. So thank you, Mark and Esther. Thanks for another good conversation about listening.
Noël:We have one more episode in our series. Next week, it will be out. We've invited Sian Rees from The Quiet Revival Podcast: what's the story? to come and join us to talk about how we can be better listeners to one another in the church today. So really looking forward to that.
Noël:And thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you next week.
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