The Rooted Podcast

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You're listening to The Rooted Podcast from Bible Society, a Christian organization that invites people to discover the life -giving power of the Bible. In each series, we dig deeper into a theme or book of the Bible and explore its message for us today. This is series two, Philippians. Hello and welcome back to The Rooted Podcast. I'm here once again, joined by Esther King. Hi, Esther. How are you doing? I'm doing very well, thank you.

And we are here with a special guest today, Leonie Dorland. Leonie is excellent. She works at Bible Society as a Bible communicator and she also is in the team that helps create every edition of Rooted. So we love her very much. We're so glad she's here. And Leonie, would you like to just say a few things about yourself? Yeah, thanks, Noelle. I'm really excited to be here.

It's been great to kind of follow the rooted journey and contribute to the journals and then also be a special guest. I feel honored to appear on the podcast. Thanks for being here. We're just going to continue on in our conversation through Philippians. Last week we looked at chapter two, after the Christ hymn. And then this week we're going to be looking through the whole of chapter three. It's quite a lot to take in, but we've just got a few really cool things in this chapter that we want to touch on that Paul talks about.

We're going to start looking just at the very first section of Paul's writing in chapter three, verses one through six. In this section, there's quite a few things going on. So I found it really interesting that right at the start, the first thing he says to them again is kind of a reminder to be joyful, but to be joyful in the Lord and to rejoice in the Lord and who He is. I feel like it's such a good start for kind of this section. And then he goes in with another warning, really, a warning about,

true circumcision and those who worship Christ in the Spirit. And then after that, it's this really interesting part where we kind of get a little bit of a bio on Paul, where he's kind of just telling us a bit more about if he were to brag and boast in himself and what he said in the Lord, these are the things he could boast in. As I was reading those, a thought that came to my mind is that this, I feel, can be so relatable for Christians today that there can be a lot of things that we boast in.

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or that we feel that we could boast in, were we to boast? And I wondered what you guys thought about that. Was that something that kind of convicted you as you read? Or what were some other thoughts that you guys had as you were reading this passage? As I was reading it, I feel like circumcision isn't necessarily something that feels really relevant because it's not a practice that we're necessarily familiar with, particularly in the West. But it was really interesting just to think about how it's actually quite...

reasonable for Paul to kind of be discussing this question with his churches and with his readers. And you can see kind of in the book of Acts that this is like one of the main debates that's going on in the early church. Like this is such a big question about whether Gentile believers needed to be circumcised or not. So this would have been really relevant for the church in Philippi as Paul was writing to them.

And, you know, there was a general consensus that Gentile believers didn't have to be circumcised to become proper Christians. You know, it was all about the inside rather than the outside. But obviously, from these kinds of letters, we can see that circumcision was still like a really big debate. And there were some that were going around saying, you know, you need to be circumcised in order to be a proper Christian. And I think there are lots of ways in which we

in our modern times can kind of come up with conditions or particular things that we think are necessary for people to be kind of proper Christians. And I think we can so easily fall into that trap, rather than just kind of rely on our faith in Christ as the one thing that saves us. Yeah, I mean, I was really struck actually by the strong language that he uses.

about these people that are going around and saying that the Gentile believers need to be circumcised, need to follow all of the ceremonial laws in order to be saved. He calls them dogs, evildoers, mutilators of the flesh. I mean, the Jewish people had discovered that they themselves could not keep the ceremonial law. It was this burden on them that they constantly fell short.

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And it would have been incredibly painful. I mean, I'm speaking as a woman here, so not that I can really say much, but circumcision, very painful. And he's saying completely unnecessary. It wouldn't achieve anything anyway in terms of this goal of salvation. It's a worthless and unnecessary thing for them. Why would you impose that? So yeah, I was struck by that strong language. And I guess in terms of what you said, Leonie, about what kind of burdens do we potentially place on people?

in terms of how we explain what it means to be a Christian. And what are the very serious implications of that if it's not, you know, basically anything that isn't centered on Christ and what we have in Christ, we shouldn't be emphasizing that. Yeah, I thought the language was interesting too. I was reading and he actually calls them, when he calls them dogs, that's interesting because that was a Jewish word for Gentiles. So I was thinking of the story in which Jesus actually says,

It's not right to take food from the table and throw it to the dogs. And he's speaking about the Gentiles, right? So I feel like there is this sort of way in which Paul is really demeaning these sorts of people. It is really strong language, you're right. Yeah, I guess I was thinking today in Christianity, we do have quite a few things that we could rely on. I do quite a lot of things at church. And as I was reading this, I was thinking, what if all of that stopped?

Like, what if I stopped volunteering and I stopped helping people, I stopped meeting with people and doing all of those things? But I actually feel as good a Christian or as close to Christ as I do now. And not to say that those things aren't important, but I think that a lot of the time it actually can be a struggle for those who hunger for Christ not to base how well you're doing with the Lord or how close you feel to the Lord on the things that you do.

I volunteer with the youth at my church and I had a young girl come to me the other week and she was saying she'd been feeling distant from God. And when I asked her why, the thing that she said was just that she hadn't been reading her Bible or praying, which does make a lot of sense. I think there also has to be this understanding that distance isn't created by that. It might feel like it is, but Christ is still in me and our relationship is the same. So kind of relying on those things. There's a bit of a tension there, but I think, yeah.

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Well, yeah, I think that that is quite a difficult balance to strike because in what Paul is writing in this chapter, he talks about kind of, I know we're going to get to it later, but he talks about pressing towards something, striving towards a goal. And I think that sometimes those spiritual practices like reading our Bible, like spending time in prayer, they are part of a close relationship with God.

you will get that sense of closeness. You're more likely to be attuned in your every moment to kind of living for God. So it isn't wrong to do that. But when I think about, you know, this, what would be a comparison for me with what Paul is saying is like a misplaced confidence in the flesh, I think in the past that I've been too confident in having kind of like a head stuffed full of Bible knowledge.

Which is quite laughable anyway, because the more I learn and grow, the more I realize that I did not understand what I thought I understood anyway. And I'm very grateful that, you know, it's never too late to grow and learn. But I think I've been in the past kind of confidently ignorant, really. So it shows that whatever confidence I had about what I thought I knew, well, it was misplaced because I've later seen I didn't understand. But then...

I think I've also been really double -minded as well in the past. I'm sort of troubled when I look back. You know, I was very familiar with the Bible, but I spent long periods of time justifying, kind of living in ways that definitely contradicted with some of what it says in God's Word. And if I'd really understood how serious that was, why didn't I have more qualms about that? I'm not saying that I didn't realize that what I was doing,

wasn't great. I kept coming to the church, I never said, I don't believe anymore. So I thought somehow that this was okay. But really, I was living in a very hypocritical way. I wasn't being a good witness to others. And it makes me question what was going on in my head and my heart then? What was I confident in? And what did I think was going to happen? Yeah, I guess there are, you know, it's that kind of like there are ditches on both sides.

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of the road aren't there. And Paul here is talking about kind of the ditch of legalism or kind of putting conditions on ourselves, whether that is following certain rules or having certain kind of conditions in place. But the other side of the road, there's a ditch of kind of license where we think none of it matters and actually we can just do whatever. You know, if Christ has saved us, then, you know, it doesn't really matter what we do anymore. And I think...

I mean, for myself at least, I kind of, I always feel like I'm on a bike and I'm just kind of constantly falling in either ditch and I kind of zigzag across the road, going from legalism to license back to legalism, back to license. And it's really hard to get that balance right of, you know, being so confident that we are saved by grace, but then in our response in the way that we live.

we honor God and we honor His love for us and we honor the grace that He has shown us by living in a way that pleases Him. But I think that is such a hard balance and it's such a narrow road and I at least keep falling into those ditches. But I think as long as we keep striving and we keep pressing on, you know, on that road, I think that's a good thing. Yeah, I agree. And then moving on. So,

In the next few verses, after Paul says that, he says, so you know, I've done all of these things, but I count it completely as loss for the sake of the gospel. So let's read that in verses 7 through to 14. Esther, could you read that for us? Absolutely, I'm reading from the NIV. But whatever word gains to me, I now consider loss for the sake of Christ.

What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I've lost all things. I consider them garbage that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. I want to know Christ. Yes.

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to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I've already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it, but one thing I do,

Forgetting what is behind and straining towards what is ahead, I press on towards the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenwards in Christ Jesus. So good. And there's so much in that. I think one of the things that struck me was when we think about knowing Christ, I think we have a certain kind of...

idea of what that looks like in our life or what we think that that means. And I think it's interesting here that Paul says that his goal is to know Christ, but then he talks about knowing Christ and His suffering and in His death and in His resurrection. So I feel like he's painting a picture there for us that maybe is different to what we would normally think of when we think about knowing Christ. But we'd also love to hear all of your thoughts as well in this passage. Yeah, what really struck me was,

just what he was saying in verse 8, the end of verse 8. He says, you know, knowing Christ Jesus my Lord for whose sake I have lost all things. And I think it's just really interesting to think about Paul, who he was, you know, and he's listed all of that in verses four and five and six. Paul was like, Paul was a ten. In his context, like, Paul was like the top dog. He had

everything, you know, a good background, good education. He had the right theology and he was really like fanatical about it. He had everything. And here he's saying, I have given up on all of that just for the sake of knowing Jesus. And it really, it really challenged me because I'm like, gosh, like if Paul was willing to give all of that up for what he knew about Jesus, like I want to know what Paul knows.

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I want to have that experience, that deep experience of knowing Christ that enabled Paul to give up like literally everything. And I think that's a real challenge for me. But it is interesting though, isn't it? He does use that loss and gain language. And I actually think that that kind of relates to a passage in Matthew, and I'll come to that in a second. But in real terms, given what he said about, look, my heritage means nothing.

in terms of my salvation. He hasn't actually materially lost anything because he never had anything in those things, if you see what I mean. It's a realization that what he's lost, I guess, is the confidence he's had because he still has that Jewish pedigree. He still kept the law, all of those things that he used to place his confidence in. But now he's realized that actually that meant nothing towards the goal.

of salvation. So he hasn't really lost anything, but he's now realized that and he's counting it as a loss. And he's setting his mind in the right place now where he can actually have confidence for real. He talks about being found in Christ. And it's that idea, isn't it, that Christ came in the flesh?

He identified perfectly with us as human beings. He walked where we walked, he experienced all the temptations that we experience, and yet he lived the perfect life. And then through his death and resurrection, we can completely identify with him by having that righteousness in him that we can't have in our own strength. I think just that passage in Matthew, it's chapter 16, verses 24 to 26, and it's when Jesus says to his disciples,

Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? So you've kind of got that loss and gain language again, and it's all centered around Jesus and our identification with him in his life, death and resurrection.

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Yeah, it actually reminds me of a few chapters before when Jesus talks about the parable of the hidden treasure. And it's about, you know, the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field. When a man found it, he hid it again. And in his joy, he went and sold all he had and bought that field. And it's kind of that realization that, gosh, everything I have, you know, it doesn't matter as long as I can have, you know, this treasure that I found. And I think that's so true for Paul.

You know, none of it matters anymore for him. The only thing that matters is knowing Christ. So he's saying none of that matters. It just matters knowing Christ. And because of that, you know, I'm forgetting everything which is behind me and I'm just looking forward to what's ahead. And if you think about Paul saying those words, that's really powerful because Paul was the one who was persecuting the church.

Yeah, I wonder what you guys think about that, the power of forgetting what is behind. Because I would think a lot of us, at least for us, probably, I know I have less to forget than if I had been persecuting the church. That would be a lot harder to forget. But there seems to be a real power in that for Paul, that he's placed all of that behind him and instead he's striving forward for his goal. Yeah, I don't know. What do you guys think about that? Is that something that relates to you?

I definitely find it encouraging not to be so trapped basically in the sins that I've committed in the past, mistakes that I've made. I think sometimes when we talk about sin, we say, it was a mistake, but that kind of misses something about the rebelliousness that I was actually engaging in at the time. It wasn't a mistake. I knew it was wrong. I did it deliberately. And I'm so grant…

grateful for the grace of God that means that I can repent. There's that whole thing about justification, isn't there? If we trust in our total justification, we don't have to keep harking back to that and keep being like, I'm tainted because of that. We can fully look forward. When I first read this passage, I was like, wait a minute, he's been talking about confidence, basically, in his salvation.

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But then he says, not that I think that I've already obtained this. I was like, so is he confident or is he not confident in Christ? But actually, I think what he's saying here is that he's not perfect. He's saying to the Philippians that I've come to this realization that it's all about Jesus and I know what I have in him. I know my salvation in him is secure. But that doesn't mean that there's no work left to do and that there's nothing to strive towards.

He wants to grow in spiritual maturity himself. He doesn't want to just stay where he is. So yeah, I felt that was quite an important point. There's the not looking back, but then there's, well, what is this forward movement? I think it's working towards spiritual maturity and keeping his eyes on the ultimate goal. Yeah, I really liked what you said there, Esther, in that kind of first part where you talked about trust and how

confident Paul must have been in the power of God's forgiveness. That he would even forgive the fact that Paul persecuted the church and killed and imprisoned so many Christians. He is so confident in the power of the gospel that he says even that, I don't have to worry about anymore.

And I don't know about you, but I'm that kind of person who will wake up at three in the morning and then my brain will just remind me of all the embarrassing, shameful, horrible things I've ever done. And it just keeps going around and around. And I think that's how we are as human beings. We carry the things from the past. But what Paul is saying here, you know, when he says, forgetting what is behind straining towards what is ahead, he's saying that is how powerful the gospel is. We can forget.

what is behind and we can strain towards what God has given us in Christ. And I think that is so powerful and such a good reminder that no matter where we come from, no matter what we've done, even Paul could be forgiven and even I can be forgiven for the things that I have done in the past.

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That's so true. It's like another, you know, he says, I'm the worst of sinners, doesn't he, at one point? But, and it also, it's that thing of like, in Christ, we have a new life. Our old self has died, and now we have a new life. It's a really dramatic change. And I think it's a good reminder to us because I've been a Christian for a long time, and I've had struggles with sin in that time.

And I'm sure I will continue to, sadly. And sometimes it's hard to remember that we have a new life because we feel like we keep slipping back into the old life, but we haven't really. That is a really hard dynamic to take hold of and to keep hold of through the struggles of life. And in order to do that, yeah, we have to have a really clear picture of where it's going as well, don't we? Which is what I think Paula's getting to.

talking about the prize and the goal.

That's a good segue Esther, because that's kind of a bit of what he talks about in the next passage, thinking about us as citizens of heaven. So that's verses 15 through to 21. Leonie, would you mind reading for us? Yes, of course.

All of us then who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained. Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters, just as you have us as a model, keep your eyes on those who live as we do. For as I have often told you before, and now tell you again, even with tears,

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many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their God is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things, but our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who by the power that enables Him to bring everything under His control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like His glorious body.

One of the things that stuck out to me was there seems to be a real contrast that he's making here between people who are enemies of the cross of Christ and people who are citizens of heaven and the different ways in which we live based on those two things. And it's really interesting to write the beginning of this passage. He says to live according to what we've already attained, which is really interesting. It's kind of...

Yeah, we've received so much from Christ, but we actually have the choice as to whether we live up to it, up to the call and up to the things that He's given to us. So I think that's a real high call from Paul in this letter to the Philippians. But yeah, what did you guys think about the contrast that he makes between those two and just any other thoughts from this passage? The contrast is between, isn't it, the focus and purpose of a life. You know, if our God is our stomach, if...

you know, the things that we glorify are actually in God's eyes shameful. You know, that's one way of living and it's not living with an acknowledgement of God or a right response to Him. But then the contrast is with those who recognize kind of their citizenship is in heaven. They focus on honoring and pleasing God. It's interesting what he says with tears.

There's that real sense of, I don't want this for you. I don't want you to live as an enemy of Christ. He cares about them so deeply. He cares about their salvation and he's calling them again to this spiritual maturity, to a focus on the right things, to reminding them of what they have in Christ. Yeah, I was thinking about that verse 16 a little bit this week, let us live up to what we have already attained or, you know, what we've already been given.

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And it's all about kind of changing our attitude, changing our mindset, changing our actions in response to the truth. You know, the truth of what has happened to us and what God has done for us. And I was just thinking about it because I feel like the past few weeks we've kind of entered, we've had a little bit of spring, but we've suddenly just like entered summer, like full on, you know, 25 degrees, it's super sunny outside. And I feel like it's almost as if,

fall is saying, winter is over, summer has arrived. You don't need to go outside in your winter boots and keep your massive coat on and worry about slipping in the snow because that wouldn't be an accurate response to reality. An accurate response would be to put your summer clothes on, get your flip -flops out and enjoy the sunshine. That's how I often think about living up to what we have attained. It's a complete change in.

Yeah, just how we respond to reality around us. And it would be silly to go outside in a winter coat when summer has arrived. And I think it's the same for us. It doesn't make sense for us to keep living in our sin, knowing what Christ has done for us and knowing the freedom that He's given to us. Yeah, that's so good. I think it ties in too with what Paul is saying about being citizens of heaven in the sense that we're not there yet in the sense that we're on the earth.

Jesus's kingdom is here now, right? So we're actually, we're living our lives in anticipation of that, but also, yeah, it's kind of like the now and the not yet and living in that tension. But you're right, like he is calling us to live as citizens of heaven now. That does require that sort of shift. I find it honestly so difficult to kind of picture the second coming of Christ. You know, there's that sense of like, yes, we know it's

we're told it's going to happen. But I mean, Christians for two millenniums, you know, they've been waiting. Well, you know, 2000 years we've been waiting for that and it hasn't happened yet. And then will it happen in my lifetime? I don't know. And to then picture and imagine what it says at the end of the passage that we're going to be transformed from our lowly bodies and we'll have this like perfect fellowship with Christ. And

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It's so amazing. It's kind of beyond what I can conceive of. And so I think then in my daily Christian life, I often don't really think about that. I don't think about the future so much that is coming that is the thing that I should be longing for, the return of Christ and that perfect relationship. And then I think because I'm not often thinking about that, it does muddy what I think it means to live out my faith.

it does make it maybe sometimes slightly less purposeful. And it can be a bit wishy -washy in my mind, like, yeah, I know this and I try to live in these ways, but sometimes maybe I don't have much of a sense of direction. So, I do find this a really good reminder and quite a challenge. Yeah, it's kind of going back to what Paul was saying, I think in chapter one of, you know, to live is Christ.

and to die is gain and just that whole mindset of looking forward. And I think that's probably where a lot of Paul's joy comes from as well. You know, joy is such a key theme of this letter, but it's very clear that he doesn't get that much joy out of life here and now and his achievements and, you know, where he's at. Actually, his joy comes from knowing that, you know, he will be with Christ and he will be like Christ. Yeah.

I was also thinking about the verse where it says that for the joy set before Him, Christ endured the cross. Thinking that heaven is a joy set before us. Like we have it now on earth, but also eternity with Christ is a joy. And for that reason, we endure what we do now. We know Christ in His sufferings and in persecution in whatever ways we can. I think there's another really nice kind of like full circle point here, because at the start we were talking about like the weakness of the flesh.

how we can't have confidence in the flesh. And then he ends up by talking about this glorious body that we're going to have. We've talked a little bit today about that struggle that we have in the now and the not yet. We still struggle with sin. And sometimes I'm sure that can be very frustrating and disheartening. But he's reminding us, OK, but your confidence was never in that. Here's who your confidence is in, and this is where it's going to lead.

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And these things that weigh you down currently will no longer weigh you down. There is going to come a time when that problem is going to be completely solved. It's really exciting when you think about it, isn't it? Yeah, it's really good. Any final thoughts that either of you have? I think my wrap -up thought, just in that last section where Paul was telling them to imitate him and imitate those who live like him with their confidence in Jesus, and it ...

I think I'm going to spend some time just really reflecting, thanking God and going and thanking the people who I, who've been like mature Christians, who've given me a really great example. Not that they're perfect in their walk of faith, but people that have really helped me to see I want to mature like them, you know, who've inspired me. People like

the house group leaders that I had when I lived in Wiltshire, who I still love and they're still praying for me. They encourage me all the time. Yeah, I just, I think it's really important sometimes to remember the influence that mature Christians have had on you and then think about, well, who can I be a mature influence and a mentor and an encouragement to myself? that's good, Esther. Well, thank you guys both.

for a great conversation today. This was so fun. Leonie, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your great thoughts. Thanks for having me. We'll be back next week looking at chapter four of Philippians and our incredible producer, Jack Morris, is joining us next week in my place. So he's going to do a great job. If you love the podcast, please feel free to leave us a review or a rating. And if you have any questions, we're going to have a Q &A episode at the end of this series.

you can leave your questions at biblesociety .org .uk forward slash rooted questions and we'll get to as many of those as we can. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Rooted Podcast. To find out more about Bible Society's mission to invite people to discover the Bible for themselves in England, Wales, and around the world, visit biblesociety .org .uk.