The Rooted Podcast

Bible Society (00:02.089)
If I have faith that God exists and that He is who He says He is in Scripture, then my whole life ought to look different. And how does that relate to this God who's not visible and yet we're called to have this very real trust and faith in Him? Maybe one way of looking at faith is to say that it is a sort of future orientation. The way that we know that they have faith is that they took an action even though they weren't sure what was going to happen, they believed. So we talk about living in faith.

often, but they didn't just live in faith. They died in faith. Something I think about is the relationship between doubt and faith. And so he's kind of bringing the focus back to Jesus and saying, it's always been about faith. You're listening to the Rooted podcast from Bible Society. In each series, we take a closer look at a theme or book of the Bible and explore its relevance in our lives today. This is our series on Hebrews.

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Rooted podcast. I'm Noelle and I'm joined here today by Mark and Esther. We're back for our last episode of the Hebrew series and we're going to be looking at Hebrews chapter 11, which is sort known as the faith chapter. So we're really excited to look at this. Before we get into it, if you're not already subscribed to the podcast, please do subscribe and share it with your friends and family if you love it. And also, if you enjoy this sort of Bible content, we also produce a journal called Rooted.

which is where this podcast comes from. If you subscribe, you get a new journal every other month and we sort of focus in on a certain book of the Bible or a theme in the Bible. So if you're wanting to sort of study the Bible more this year, have a look at that. It's biblesociety.org.uk forward slash rooted. So yeah, let's get into this episode. So Hebrews 11 is really interesting. It's all about faith and all these people that we read in the Old Testament who lived lives of faith. But before we sort of get into it, Mark, could you just give us a bit of an overview

sort of what this chapter is saying, what is this really all about? Yeah, sure. It's really important, I think, that we understand that this is not just about faith in the abstract. So it's not just a list of great Bible heroes just for the sake of it. It's actually an argument. I think it kind of runs away with itself towards the end because, you know, the writer gets so into this, but it is basically an argument.

Bible Society (02:22.944)
And the book of Hebrews seems to be aimed at Jewish Christians who were kind of undervaluing Jesus and reverting to their original Judaism. And, we've talked about the sacrificial system having a sort of transactional element to it. And the things that marked you out as a Jew like circumcision and Sabbath keeping and the food laws, all of these things meant that the personal relationship with God, personal faith,

could be sidelined and that it was about what you do, not what you actually believed and felt. Obviously, it didn't have to be like that and there were lots of Jews who were really devout and genuinely faithful people, but it could be like that. So, Hebrews 11 is designed to show that all of these great heroes of Israelite and Jewish life had faith from Abel onwards. So, it was never

just about actions, was never just about what you did, it was always about what your heart was like, it was about your vision and your trust. And so basically, he is calling readers to be faithful. And so he's kind of bringing the focus back to Jesus and saying, it's always been about faith. I agree with you about that idea of a sort of real personal element to faith.

and not sliding back to the old ways. But I think it's also an encouragement. If you look right at the end of chapter 10, this is, I won't read it all, but verses 32 to 39, he's kind of saying, don't be discouraged as well. He's saying, okay, I know that you might be suffering right now. You might be being persecuted. Maybe you're not seeing the fruits of the faith that you have in God. You're not seeing the promise come about. But don't give up.

He also brings out all of these sort of examples of faithful people to make the point that, they also didn't necessarily in their lifetime receive or see the promises that have been made to them come to full fruition, but they still lived in faith of that happening in the future. So yeah, I think there's kind of two elements there. I think you're absolutely right. There is this service.

Bible Society (04:43.95)
sort of dual perception of faith as it were. I think that's what I was getting at when I was saying his argument sort of runs away with him because he's kind of inspired by all the wonderful things that these people have done. Yeah, I mean, we might talk a little bit more about that later, but faith is able to inspire people to act in ways that they'd otherwise be completely incapable of. It's the Apostle Paul's line really, isn't it? That it's all about faith.

It's the righteousness that comes by faith. It would be interesting to know if the writer of Hebrews and the Apostle Paul ever met. You know, it's obviously not a sort of Pauline epistle, but it's the same basic idea, isn't it? That faith is what counts, not words. So, when we talk about faith and we're saying these people had faith, what do we mean? And what is faith? So, if we look at...

verses one through three. Well, verse one is really the common definition. Now, faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. And then in verses two and three, the writer says, But I think a lot of the time for Christians, faith does seem like an abstract thing or something that's hard to actually explain how you have it or

How can you tell if you have it or how much you have it? And what does it really look like, I guess, or what does it mean? I think, yeah, you're right, Noel. Quite often we do talk about faith in a kind of a wishy-washy way, more as sort of a feeling or, you know, it's not a concrete now, let's say abstract. But I think what the writer does really engage with that, because by talking about

God by His word creating everything that exists out of what was not visible and the fact that God Himself is not visible. It's this sort mind-bending thing and He's saying by faith we kind of accept that that is. It's interesting because in the Gracchow Roman world, they believed that everything that existed, it had eternally existed. There was eternally existing matter and that's where the universe came from.

Bible Society (07:01.26)
And this was a really different view that actually everything visible came from something that was not visible. And how does that relate to this God who's not visible? And yet we're called to have this very real trust and faith in Him, in His word, in His promises, and in the future that He's sovereign over. He's got the control over it we haven't. So there's so much going in here, but that verse one.

it does speak of certainty, doesn't it? It's the assurance of things that you don't yet have, the conviction or the belief in things that even though you haven't seen them, you believe that they are true and real, you believe in God. Yeah, I think there are three things that I could think of about this. I mean, one is where it says in verse 6, no one can please God without faith for whoever comes to God must have faith that God exists and

that he rewards those who seek him. It seems to me that there are two things in that verse. One is there's a kind of intellectual ascent in the existence of God. You have to think, well, yes, the idea that God exists makes sense. So that's one thing. But that's a fairly low level of faith, isn't it, really? It says somewhere the demons also believe and tremble. So it doesn't take much to say that.

But that he rewards those who seek him seems to me to speak more about a relationship with God. You know, seek God, God seeks you. You know, there is a rewarding relationship there. So I think that comes into it as well. So I think from that point of view, just from that verse, I think that's a sort of double-sided definition of faith, if you like. But the other thing that

I was thinking. And it's been so helpful to me actually, just really drilling down into this passage because it's made me think about things that I hadn't really thought about before. But maybe one way of looking at faith is to say that it is a sort of future orientation so that you are not just confined by what you see and hear around you. It's not just a this worldly thing. You're actually putting your trust in something which you cannot see and

Bible Society (09:29.91)
which you can't sort of prove in any kind of scientific or mathematical sense, but it's something that you are sure of and that you hope for. You know, that's what it says in the first verse, isn't it? The assurance of the hope for the evidence of things not seen. And you kind of orientate your life in that direction. Yeah, I like that idea that's the future orientation, but also that what you were saying earlier about if

If Scripture says that we have to believe that He's a rewarder of those who seek Him, that's active, isn't it? I think it's important. And I think this chapter says that, is that faith has to look like something. Like, I do have faith in God and that is internal, as you've said, like this ascent that I have that He exists. But I think anything beyond that has to look like something. You know, it has to mean something. So, I was thinking about when James says that faith without works is dead.

and how a lot of the time I think faith looks like taking a risk because of what you believe, right? So we think about all of these people in the Old Testament and the New Testament, the way that we know that they have faith is that they took an action even though they weren't sure what was going to happen, they believed. Yeah, and I think we really do get a sense of that from the examples that the author of Hebrews goes on to give because it's not just that they believed in God.

that God spoke to them and they took him at his word and asked them to, or said, do this. And they did it, believing in the benefits that would come that God promised them, if you see what I mean. And I think it is interesting today. I mean, as a Christian, I think of the Bible as the primary way that God speaks into, you know, like I do believe that he can speak to me directly, but the Bible,

It is God's message for us and it tells us lots of things. It tells us, what is our future expectation, et cetera. But we don't necessarily have an experience like Abraham had with God speaking to him saying, leave your home country. I'm going to bless you in these ways. So yeah, think sometimes it is hard, know, faith and action today.

Bible Society (11:59.596)
think it can be a bit easy for us to turn it into a wishy-washy thing because, know, to what sense can we really see like, well, God says this in the Bible and that should lead me to do X immediately. It's not necessarily the same. It doesn't feel the same. Do you see what I mean? As God speaking to Abraham and saying, these things, because he didn't just say leave your home country. Later, he even tells him, sacrifice your son, Isaac.

Do know what I mean? But do we have clear moments like that or is it slightly different mediated through the Bible? I don't know. What do you think? Yeah, guess I think it's both. I think sometimes we do. Sometimes I do feel like the Lord speaks to me and tells me things to do or talks to me about things and then I think, I ought to act on that. But also,

I do think it's a broader thing of if I have faith that God exists and that is who He says He is in Scripture, then my whole life ought to look different. That's the sort of thing where when I was growing up, since I grew up in the States, it's very common to say that you are Christian, at least when I was growing up it was. So you can be a Christian and you go to church on Easter and you go to church on Christmas. And if someone asked you what religion you were, you would say you were a Christian.

But then I was a Christian who was at church like all the time and I really believed in God and it was like a huge, you it was my life. So to me, there was always disconnect there. But I guess what I think now is I think, well, if you really had faith that God is who He says He is, that's amazing. If He really is who He says He is, that ought to change the way my whole life looks. And I think that's what I think about when you say like, there might not be specific things in the Bible, although I think there are some, but it's more like,

again, my faith has to look like something and I think it looks like a whole life change. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a really good question actually, I think there might be a difference between these kind of special moments where you feel that God is speaking to you or you feel particularly inspired or motivated or particularly in touch with God and most of the rest of your life.

Bible Society (14:19.79)
In terms of Abraham and Abel and people like that, I mean, we know particular parts of their life, but most of the time they were just living, you know. And so we only get the highlights really. So I think there's probably a difference between those moments of faith and the daily business of just living faithfully. Because that's more about how you sort of orientate your life and the sort of things that

that guide you and the decisions that you make and the things that you do and where you put your time and energy and efforts, which might not come with any great spiritual buzz or anything like that, but they still say something about you and your priorities and where you actually believe and where you put your trust and where you put your faith. Yeah, and I think you really see that, don't you, in this book? Because all these warnings that the author of Uruz has been making saying, don't drift away, well,

If you sort of lose sight of God and if in your daily life, believing in him, believing that he's who he said he is and he's going to do what he said he's going to do, if that's not shaping that sort of normal daily action, then you do start to drift. You do start to get sidetracked. Other things can seem more attractive. It's not necessary that you stopped believing in God, but you're not living your life for him and to him and all of that.

I think what you said about your life being shaped by that is really important. It just made me think of a story. I think most people will remember this, but it's just 10 years ago next month that 21 Coptic Christians were martyred on a beach in Libya. These were Egyptian guests workers in Libya and they came from really poor

villages in Egypt. These were not wealthy people. They weren't educated people at all. And they were captured by Islamic State and they were dressed in orange jumpsuits and made to kneel down. Behind each one of them was an Islamic State fighter. All this was videoed and they were beheaded. And it was this dreadful, dreadful event. But they were all Christians.

Bible Society (16:39.938)
one of the things that came out so clearly on the video, and I haven't seen that video, not all of it, but they said one by one, YAH RAVAY YASUS, which means, my Lord Jesus, just before they died. And those were their last words. That was their final prayer. And I read a book by a German researcher novelist called Martin Moserbach.

I think it was called 21 Christians. And he actually went to Egypt and he met their families and he interviewed their pastors and bishops and things. What came out so clearly in that book was how their whole lives had prepared them to be martyrs. And it had just shaped their identity as Christians so powerfully that when it came to it, they were okay.

I'm sure they'd have preferred to live, but they knew where they were going. I just, whenever I read this message in Hebrews, I always think those 21 Christians would have been in that list if it were being written today. It makes me think, you kind of put it in Hebrews 11, 13, and then kind of reiterated in verse 39.

The author's been talking about these faithful examples who persevered through all kinds of situations. And it says, these all died in faith. So we talk about living in faith quite often, but they didn't just live in faith. They died in faith, like still looking forward to what would come after and the fulfillment that hadn't yet happened.

I think that's an interesting idea for me, not just living in faith, but persevering right to the end, which isn't really the end, but dying in faith.

Bible Society (18:45.454)
So with all of this in mind and sort of thinking about faith in this chapter, how do we live by faith? How do the people mentioned here live by faith? What does it look like? Something I think about is the relationship between doubt and faith. So I think about how in my life, as I'm a Christian and I'm living by faith, there must be moments in which I doubt that God is who He says He is or else I wouldn't act certain ways.

And so if I really believe that God was my provider, then maybe I wouldn't have done this X thing to try and provide for myself because I didn't think I was going to have what I needed. Does that make sense? And so I was just thinking about how, you know, the whole reason that we have faith is because we have doubt, right? If we didn't, you know, if we were absolutely certain about things to do with God, or we are absolutely certain that God existed or that

God was who He says He was, we wouldn't need to have faith that He is who He says He is and that He exists. Which I think is actually beautiful that faith exists for us in those places. Like when we think about Thomas, the story of Thomas and John 20 after Jesus' resurrection, Thomas misses Jesus' visitation to the disciples and he says, well, I don't believe. He actually refuses to believe and he says, until I see Jesus and when I see His wounds, I won't believe.

And that story, you can pull so much out of it. But something I love about it is that Jesus meets him in that place of doubt. He actually comes to him and actually gives him what he asks for. And it is a rebuke. He does tell him to stop doubting and to believe. But it's masked by tons of love that we sort of just see it as Jesus meeting Thomas in his doubt. Yes, I don't mean to glorify doubt. It's not where we want to be. And unbelief is not where we want to be. But I do find the correlation

and between the two really interesting. I wonder what you guys think about that. Doubt for me is not so much, I I dare say most of us probably go through times of intellectual doubt where we wonder what the whole thing is about. We might wonder whether God really exists. We wonder, you know, maybe whether the whole thing is relevant, whether we should just sort of get on with our lives and we've got better ways of spending Sunday mornings and that kind of thing. So doubt on that level.

Bible Society (21:11.918)
I is probably an occasional factor, suppose. Thinking about me, it's an occasional factor in my life, but not very often and not very deep, to be honest. At my age and with my length of Christian service, if you like, I think I pretty well know where I am. But I think the other side of that is

is the fact that we can lose focus on God. It's not so much that we doubt intellectually whether he is there. It's whether it matters to us in the way that he ought to matter. mean, for instance, if we are faced with a temptation to do something wrong. Now, if the person that we were wronging were in the room with us, we wouldn't do it.

And if we had this sense of God being in the room with us, then we wouldn't do it. But the fact is that we do, and that's because we lose focus on Him and He seems to be real to us and present to us. And that, I think, is a form of doubt. know, thinking about my own life, I wouldn't say that there's been a point where I've stopped believing in God and believing that

he is, who he says he is. But I have really struggled with that temptation. For example, things that I've wanted in my life. so I know I can see what it says in God's Word about how to live as a Christian, what that should look like, what is a good and righteous life. But because I've been like, but what if God doesn't have this for me in the future that I really want?

or it seems to be taking too long or whatever. I then take matters into my own hand and do go about it in ways that he's definitely said I should not do. So yeah, it is, I love that connection you made Noel about, you know, why would I behave in this way that I know God has said this isn't the way that pleases me, this isn't righteous. While still believing in him, but I choose to do it, it's because

Bible Society (23:38.262)
It's not happening fast enough. It's not happening how I think it should happen. I think I'll just give God a little bit of help here or well, actually even if this isn't why has me, but I really want it anyway. I think that's where my sort of doubts have come in and it's doubting that I want what God is going to give me and perhaps I want something else. And it's not necessarily that big overarching big faith question, but it's my daily life.

faith, my walk of obedience with him, trusting that if I do that, what he has for me is better than what I think I want in that moment. I do think it's interesting in Hebrews 12, because we've talked about how he's trying to encourage people to persevere. He also just addresses discipline. Sometimes we think of, I'm being persecuted by the enemies of God, or these struggles are kind of from without

outside that relationship. But then from verse seven in chapter 12, it talks about God disciplining us because he loves us. So, and it talks about that struggle that we have with sin that we even have to fight and endure through that. Even when that's painful, it seems painful to obey and deny ourselves what we think we want in that moment to not sin. But it comes from a place of love. That even that

struggle in faith that we might have there is for our good, because what God has for us is better. Can I go back to John and doubting Thomas? I'm really struck by the fact that Jesus says to him, because you've seen me, you've believed. Blessed are those who have not seen me and who yet have believed. And I'm sure that Jesus means

everybody sins Thomas basically. So that's us. You know, we have not seen Jesus, but we have still believed. But it's so interesting that he says, blessed are those who have not seen me, but who believed, as though that's a superior kind of blessing. So it's better, in a sense, to have faith than to have the direct knowledge that Thomas did because he'd seen Jesus.

Bible Society (25:58.382)
And that makes me wonder, well, why is faith better than absolute concrete knowledge? And I just wonder whether it's as simple as faith having a kind of psychological energy behind it. It has to be active, there has to be a commitment. You really have to commit yourself to the object of your faith. I agree.

requires greater love too. Like if I just can see Jesus perhaps, then I know He's there and I love Him. But me believing that He is there and He loves me and all of the things that I believe about Him and devoting my whole life to it, even though I can't see it, I almost feel like that's a greater form of love. It requires more of me. It's more of a sacrifice.

for me to do that. It's more of a sacrifice for me to obey Him when I can't see Him and to actually give up my whole life to Him when I can't see Him. So I wonder if that's part of it. Yeah, and I think that's part of the reason though why we're also given these examples of people who did just that. I think it's interesting because so many of these people that are mentioned in this chapter, they didn't live the perfect life.

that they did at very key moments, trusting God, obey Him, do what He said and believe in His promise. And that is an encouragement to us. And it's an encouragement to the people who was originally writing for saying, look at all this evidence that God is trustworthy, that you can live a life of faith. You can do this too. And I'm sure we can think of examples in our own lives of, you know, people that we know that have

really trusted in God through some difficult times. And maybe that gives us courage to do the same. I think that's one of the reasons why we're called to share our testimony. The great cloud of witnesses that this author has written about here, we're part of the great cloud of witnesses now in our day, people who have been faithful to God and they're there to encourage us along the way.

Bible Society (28:19.47)
I think another question I wonder or have about this is how do we grow in faith? So Jesus, a lot of the time will say things like, you have little faith. And then there will be moments like with the Roman centurion where it says that Jesus was amazed by his faith, which means, I guess I've always thought of it in that I can have less or more faith and that it's something that I can actually grow in, in my faith in God. I wonder what you guys think about that and what you think about how someone

grows in faith. Well, tell us just a second before we do the story that you're referring to with the Roman century. Can you tell us just a bit more about his faith, what Jesus was referring to? This is the faith of the Roman officer. It's in Matthew 8, verses 5 to 13. Basically, he comes to Jesus in Capernaum and he tells him that his servant is in bed, paralyzed in terrible pain. Then Jesus says,

to your servant and I'll heal him." And the officer says, I'm not worthy to have you come, but just say the word from where you are. I mean, I know because I have authority that if I say something to my soldiers, if I say go, they go. And so just say it from where you are. And Jesus says that when, it says when Jesus heard this, he was amazed. And he turns to the people who were there and he says, I tell you the truth, I haven't seen faith like this in all of Israel. And then he says, go back home because you believed it has happened.

and the young servant is healed the same hour. Yeah, that's really interesting because you were talking about how people grow in faith. And the interesting thing about that is that the centurion just takes something from his own life and thinks, well, I know how this works. You know, I give somebody a command and they jolly well do it. you know, Jesus is obviously greater than I am. And I believe that he can give a command like this and the servant will be

be made well, my servant will be made well. And that just makes me think about how we learn about other things from the lives that we live. We might learn about God's love, for instance, by the love of our own parents. There might be all sorts of things that we can pick up. God speaks to us, maybe through the world that He's made and through our experience of nature or whatever.

Bible Society (30:46.008)
But I think just being attuned to how God works in the world is probably a source of faith, a source of growth, do think? But I also think that, you know, God is so gracious towards us because he doesn't expect us to have this perfect, fully fleshed faith immediately necessarily. if you look back over the course of your life, you know, from the moment that you become a Christian and then some of the

things that you've done and experiences you've had since then and where you are now. can probably say, well, hopefully you can say, like, I've got more faith now than I had then, but I was a Christian then. I was saved. You know, I was fully accepted by God. I still got these things wrong. And I now understand this that I didn't understand then. And I've got this evidence of who God is and that I can trust Him now that I didn't have then.

But all the way along, do you have that relationship with God? mean, because you didn't see that with Abraham, don't you? You know, when it starts out, God speaks to him and says, leave your home country. But then that's in Genesis 12, but he doesn't give him like the full promise there. I don't think he mentions the promised land in Genesis 12. And you see how Abraham, like at various points,

He doesn't really trust in God. He lies about Sarah not being his wife, but his sister, and that gets them into hot water, and he does that twice, you know? So is he trusting in God at that moment to protect him and Sarah? And yet, you look over the course of his life, I think he does grow in faith. You you see him struggling with doubt when he says to God,

You you've said that you're going to make me a great nation and yet still I have no children. So how's this going to happen? You know, I'm half dead. My wife is way too old. How are you going to bring this about? And then God says, well, I can because with me, nothing is impossible. And he makes this happen. So that's, that's evidence to bolster his faith. He can grow in faith from that that he didn't have at the start. Do you see what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I see what you mean.

Bible Society (33:09.29)
I just wonder though as well whether it's always appropriate to think about faith in a sort quantitative sense, you know, we have more of it or we have less of it. And so, you know, it sort of goes up, it should go up during the course of our life. And I'm not sure it's always like that, to be honest, because I think often it's more that we have more experiences of life, we meet people, we talk to people, we share people's lives. And all the time,

our experience of faith is it's not just going up, it's getting broader, it's getting deeper, it's getting more experienced, more nuanced, more subtle, it's sort of permeating every part of our lives. And I think that's part of growing in faith as well. It's not just that we have more of it, it's the quality of faith that we have rather than the amount. I think it comes back to what you said earlier, Mark, actually about

focus. Because you get that in chapter 12, where the writer says, let us run with endurance, erase the respect before us, looking to Jesus. Some translations say, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith. yeah, so it kind of is that, he's my focus and everything, even the broadest bits of my life come from that.

focus on Him, my faith in Him and what He secured for me. Should we finish with the ending of Hebrews? There's a benediction in chapter 13 verses 20 to 21. We thought that would be a nice place to end the series. Mark, would you like to read that for us?

So, reads, God has raised from death our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the great shepherd of the sheep, as the result of His blood, by which the eternal covenant is sealed. May the God of peace provide you with every good thing you need in order to do His will, and may He, through Jesus Christ, do in us what pleases Him. And to Christ be the glory forever and ever. Amen. That's the Good News Bible translation.

Bible Society (35:28.374)
It's just lovely, isn't it? A beautiful, beautiful way of finishing the book. One of the commentaries that I looked at suggested that he talks about the God of Peace because maybe he wasn't writing to a congregation or congregations who were at peace with one another. It looks as though there was some internal strife and so on and so forth. So, he's just reminding them that God is a God of Peace.

Well, and it also summarizes the message that he's been making in this whole book, hasn't it? We can be at peace with God because of Jesus and this eternal covenant that he's brought about. Well, we'll end there. Thank you so much for listening to this episode, the last episode of our Hebrew series. We hope you enjoyed it.

Just remember, if you would like more content like this, we'd love for you to keep listening to the podcast. There will be a new series out soon, all about Proverbs, which is the next Rooted journal that's going to be coming out at the end of January. if you would like to subscribe to Rooted, if you want more content like this, you can check that out at biblesociety.org.uk forward slash Rooted. As always, if you enjoyed the podcast, please share it with your friends. You can leave us a review.

If you have any questions, we always like to hear your questions, so you can send them in to biblesociety.org.uk forward slash your questions and we will look at those. Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you for the Proverbs series.