The Rooted Podcast

(00:00.974)
You're listening to The Rooted Podcast from Bible Society. In each series, we take a closer look at a theme or book of the Bible and explore its relevance in our lives today. This is our series on the parables. Mark to The Rooted Podcast. I'm Mark and I'm here with Esther and our special guest, Leonie. Leonie has been with us before and we had great conversations around Philippians. And so it's really good to have you back, Leonie. Thank you for coming.

Those of you who get the Rooted Journal know that the most recent one is about parables, and we are looking at the parables of Jesus in the podcast. And this week we're going to be talking about the values of God's kingdom. So what do the parables tell us about what matters in God's kingdom and how is it different from other kingdoms? So I'm going to start with Esther. And Esther, can you tell us a little bit about what this

value system is and maybe just offer up a few thoughts about what it means. Absolutely. Well, I mean, in last week's episode, you talked about how the kingdom of God exists when God's will is done and when we're in right relationship with God and with others and with the world around us. And I really loved that. And I kind of think that's a good starting point. I think

That idea of right relationship is key to understanding kingdom values. I think kingdom values are displayed when God is in his rightful place on the throne in our lives. So this, it brings him delight, glory, honor. When we live his way, it brings peace, wholeness, justice, goodness, abundant life, everything good. And that kind of makes me think of the Garden of Eden.

because when God looked around at His creation, it says in Genesis that He saw that it was good. And then what happens? Well, human beings are deceived into believing that they know better. They want to get on the throne themselves, and they want to take God's place. And I think this actually is kind of where we see an inversion of kingdom values. If they're living like that, they're undermining God's authority, it's a rebellion.

02:24.298)
Maybe it sounds like hyperbole. You might think, come on, they just ate a bite or two of the forbidden fruit. But the root cause of that in their hearts and minds and the consequence of their actions are really deadly serious. Just to go back to our original question, it gets to something really important in the Bible's big story that's true about all humans throughout history in whatever culture they belong to. If you boil down like

all of the differences between cultures, personalities, opportunities. What remains is kind of this sinful human nature that is always prone to this inversion of kingdom values. So we, whoever we are, tend to want to dethrone God and put ourselves or something or someone in his place. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Can you give us some examples of how this works out in today's society?

Definitely, at least in the West, I think, you we've got a really individualistic culture. And so much of that is kind of encouraging us to build our own kingdoms and to be on the throne of our own lives. You know, wants to have other people treat us like royalty because we're always focusing on what we want or what we deserve. And think about the way that the celebrity phenomenon has been so valued by our culture.

I'm not denying that some people have like amazing talents to share with the world, but if you're obsessing over becoming famous and you're willing to put in the effort that it takes to achieve that, it is about wanting to be adored and almost worship to someone extra special. Even if you come from a culture that has completely different values that are prized. If God isn't on the throne, if Jesus isn't the king of that culture, then whatever its values are,

The values that are prized in the kingdom of heaven will be different. They'll be really radical. I think they switch on a light and they spread. I think there's a Bible passage that talks about spreading the aroma of Christ. So we're spreading a life-giving aroma in the darkness and despair that I think all of these other things, when we chase the wrong things, that's what they create.

04:46.649)
Okay, thank you, Esther. So, we've had a bit of an introduction. What we're trying to do in these podcasts is have a sort of structure when we're talking about parables. So, there's, you know, a kind basic framework. So, we look at the context, we look at the meaning, and then we look at the result. What does it actually achieve? And so, we're going to talk about three parables. And the first one is the workers in the vineyard, and that is Matthew chapter 20 versus

one to 16. And I'm going to ask Leonie, can you just sort of summarize that parable for us and tell us what's going on? sure. This parable, and Matthew, I find it so interesting. So it's about this man who has a vineyard, early in the morning, he goes out into the marketplace to find some people to work for him that day. And so he gets a couple of guys and they come.

And he agrees a wage with them at the start of the day. says, this is how much you'll get to work for me today. And they agree to it and they get to work. Then later on in the day, the owner is kind of like, I need some more workers. So he goes out to the marketplace again, gets some more people and he says, I'll pay you what is right. And so they also go and work in the vineyard. And then again, later on in the afternoon, he goes again.

And then later on he goes again to get more and more workers. And then at the end of the parable, Jesus says, the end of the day, when all the workers had finished, the owner paid all of them the same wage. So the people who'd started at the start of the day got the same wage as the people who maybe had done one hour of work for him. And in the parable, there is an obvious kind of

not an argument that starts, but almost a discussion about why did we all get the same wage? Why did the person who came last get the same as me who's worked all day? And that's kind of where the parable ends with this disgruntled bunch of workers. And I find it so interesting because it's a weird story and it's one that doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense. Like who is

(07:05.947)
who is right, are the workers right to complain, is the owner right to pay the same wage to everyone? But yeah, that's kind of the parable in summary. Great, thank you. And well, we've all been reading this parable, but you've been digging into it. And I wonder if you came to a conclusion about who was right? The thing is, with Jesus' parables,

And I think maybe you mentioned this in a previous episode, Mark, there is something not quite right with the question, you know, what's, what is the solution? You know, a parable is not a mathematical problem where we kind of come to the end and we get the answer. I think, yes, I think in this parable, we maybe need to kind of go beyond the question who is right. Because

I think that's a tricky one to answer. I think for me, when I first kind of read this story, I really related to disgruntled workers who'd been working away all day and they get nothing more than the person who comes in the last minute. So yeah, I don't know, Esther, have you got any thoughts on this? Yeah, I kind of agree with you about that question of who's right.

tricky. And I think it's not so much doing that, it's kind of, it's getting us to explore this idea of what is fair, you know, because we have our, maybe our values that dictate what we imagine to be fair. But then in this case, if the owner of the vineyard can sort of be said to be representing God, it doesn't seem by our standards that he's acted in a fair way.

And in fact, I think actually a big message in this is that he's been more than fair because, you know, can we actually say that God owes us anything? You know, if this is God who everything we have comes from him, he's graciously kind of given us a job, allowed us to work in his vineyard, we're participating in what he's doing. In what sense does he owe us something beyond what he's promised?

(09:29.841)
which we've received in full. And I think there's a big challenge in here about whether, you know, like you said, you kind of identified maybe a bit of those people who are looking around at others and sort of comparing what they've received and maybe feeling a bit, hang on a minute, this isn't right, or potentially even feeling bitter. Like, do we actually begrudge God's generosity to other people?

I think it definitely talks about our relationship with God and the way we sometimes compare what we deserve from God with what another person might not deserve from God. I'm sure that's there. But I actually think this is a really political parable, actually. And I think we probably lose something if we don't recognize that, because I did some commentary digging, as I usually do, and I found out that

Well, a denarius was a good day's pay for a day's work. And you needed half a denarius if you were a single person. You could live on half a denarius a day, okay? If you had a family, you definitely needed the full denarius. So you've got these men who are standing around hoping desperately to be hired, and they're still at the end of the day because they have no other way of making a living.

what else are they going to do? They're going to stay to the bitter end because there's a chance that they might get something. But I think the point in these sort human social terms is that if they had been paid what they had earned, these people who came in at the end of the day, they wouldn't have been paid enough to live on. So they were being paid not what they deserved, but they were being paid what they needed.

And I think that's really challenging to a lot of how people think of, you know, how society is ordered today. You know, do we get what we deserve or should we be looking after people who, for whatever reason, can't earn enough to feed themselves? And I think, you know, the kingdom answer is, well, yes, we jolly well should.

(11:50.993)
And there should not be any hungry people. There should not be any people who can't afford to heat their homes. There should not be any poor people who have so little to live on that they can't play a full part in sort of ordinary social life. Of course, the difficulty is, well, how do you make that happen? And how do you bring people along with you? And how do you balance justice?

and these kingdom values. And that is a thing, obviously. But I think that's what lies behind this parable. Yeah. I think that's a really interesting point and so relevant for today as well. But it really challenges the way that we think in our society. But I think it's so helpful, isn't it, just to kind of think about the point of this parable isn't necessarily that

know, some received less than they deserved. But the point is that some received more than they deserved. But I think sometimes when I read these parables, I find myself kind of relating to one or the other person in the parable. And like I said earlier on, I can relate to the people who have worked hard, who deserve a lot.

who are kind of the best and who really deserve a good wage. And actually, come to think of it in terms of my relationship with God, that's not necessarily who I am. I'm not the person who deserves a lot from God. I'm not the person who is in good standing with God. I am actually the person who doesn't deserve much.

I am the person who needs God's grace, you know, and I think sometimes we need to almost, yeah, think about in this parable, who am I? Am I the most deserving or am I the least deserving? Because if I am the least deserving, then this parable is really good news for me. But if I keep putting myself in the place of the person who deserves a lot, then this parable is not that good news for me.

(14:11.537)
So it's really challenging to kind of think about, you know, where do I put myself in my relationship with God and how does that affect how I read this? Yeah, does, doesn't it? And I think it's challenging for those of us who, you know, I mean, I've been to church all my life. I mean, I might look at this parable and think, well, yes, I am one of the ones who's worked all the way through and everything.

But then it's telling me not to compare myself to other people, isn't it? And the whole comparison thing is so dangerous and it's so wrong, isn't it? I mean, I think all of us do compare ourselves with others. It's sort of something we find. I know I find it a real challenge not to do it. And when I get too hung up on comparison, it never leads to anything good. It doesn't lead to me loving others more.

for a start, it doesn't lead to me being full of joy at the blessings that they've received if I'm too focused on, want that for myself or whatever. But I think a good question that came up for me is, well, when I'm laboring in God's vineyard, when I'm serving in the kingdom of God, instead of comparing my service with that of others, but how can I actually be sure that I'm serving from a place of gratitude?

So my focus is on God and the gratitude that is owed to Him because of the grace that He's shown me and all of the goodness that He's given me. Absolutely. And it goes back to what you were talking about at the beginning, Esther of Kingdom Values. If we put God at the centre of our being, that attitude of gratitude becomes just really easy, doesn't it? But when we put ourselves at the centre of our universe,

that's when we start becoming disgruntled and feeling like we deserve a lot. And so it kind of comes back to, you know, is God on the throne in our lives or not? And that's, yeah, what these parables are all about is about challenging us to think through and wrestle with that question. Is gratitude a kingdom value? Is that one of the things that we're talking about? I'm just trying to get at what the kingdom value is in this parable.

(16:36.689)
Yeah, I do think that you could claim it as one of the Kingdom values. think, you know, so much of Jesus' teaching, he was sort of holding up a magnifying glass to here are the values that you tend to operate under. And, you know, he doesn't even necessarily say that they're all bad, but there's a subtle shift to actually completely align yourself and adopt Kingdom values.

And the way to do that is obviously to have God as your priority, to love what He loves, to want what He wants. And in order to do that, you have to know what His values are. So I think Jesus is really trying to teach people in all of these pictures and in His more direct teachings, He's trying to say, this is what God is like. This is what He values. This is what, you know, when He's reigning unopposed, this is the fruit of His kingdom. So I think gratitude would be part of that.

many more values. I'm sure you can add more. I don't know about adding values. What you said is really good. I think what's really important in this parable as well is this idea that the least and the lowest are there on equal terms with the strong and the fit. I mean, if you think about the people who hire workers,

They're going to hire the best workers first, aren't they? And gradually you go further down the list of people who are desirable workers. And the ones who are at the end, you know, they might be, you know, hardly fit for anything, but you know, whatever it is, they are dropping off the bottom of society. And there is something here about radical inclusion, isn't there?

And you can think about a church congregation, there'll be people like that, either in purely material, physical terms. There'll be people like that certainly in spiritual terms as well. Or you can just think about society in general. This is not a fair society, it's not a just society. But what do we do with people who are at the bottom of the heap? Well, the kingdom value is you treat them and you think of them in the same way that you look at the rich and successful people.

(18:56.971)
know, the powerful people. So, we've had a good go at this parable and this seems like a good point to go on to the next parable, which is the parable of the unforgiving servant in Matthew chapter 18 verses 21 to 35. And Esther, do you want to summarise this parable for us? Yeah, sure. So, in this parable, Jesus compares the kingdom of heaven to being like a king

He's got a whole bunch of servants and they're all in debt to him. And one day he calls them in, he wants them basically to settle their debts, repay them. Now, there's one particular servant who this story focuses on. He owes such a huge amount, I mean, it says 10,000 talents in the Bible. One commentary I read, which is quite dated even now, said this was like six billion pounds in today's money. There's no way.

that he's ever going to be able to repay this huge amount. And he's actually on the brink of being sold along with his wife and children and all their possessions just to recoup even some of the money. So this person's desperate and they plead with the king, please give me more time. And the king's moved to compassion and he actually releases the servant and he forgives him his entire debt. Then the story moves on and we've got this

dramatic reversal because this servant, fresh from this amazing display of grace towards him, goes out and he violently seizes a servant who owes him money, but like a much less significant amount compared to what he owed. And he demands that this person pays him back. The guy pleads just like he was pleading with the king not that long ago, but he won't give him more time.

He won't forgive the debt. He actually throws him in jail. Onlookers who see this and are like astounded probably by the hypocrisy or just, yeah, this is very jarring, they go and tell the king and he's outraged. He calls the servant in, you wicked servant, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. And should you not have had mercy on your fellow servant as I had mercy on you.

(21:20.869)
and then he actually reinstates the death and sends him to jail. So he's kind of forced to take the punishment that could have been taken away. So yeah, that's the end of that story. That's the end of him, isn't it? Leonie, what do you think the messages that's coming out of here? I what's the overall theme of this particular parable? I think this one is slightly easier to understand. I think it's

obvious that the King is the most compassionate, gracious person ever, and the servant that he forgives is the exact opposite. And so again, I think we can see that the King in this story is probably representing God in many ways in terms of compassion and power and being gracious.

Well, who the servant is, is a question that goes a bit deeper, potentially. Sometimes I read these parables, and I'm like, you know, it's story of a horrible person. And then at the end of the story, I'm like, gosh, this horrible person is me. know? Jesus does that on purpose, you know, so that there are probably a number of people in the crowd that He told this to, who would have had that feeling at the end of like,

no, like I don't think I am as compassionate as the king. I think I might be unforgiving in the way that the servant was. So yeah, again, really interesting story, really challenging. I think that's such a good point though, because we are none of us as compassionate as God. That's kind of the point, because this whole story, the reason why Jesus tells this parable is because Peter comes to him and asks him,

you know, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? And he throws out what I think the tone of it suggests that he thinks it's like a big number of times. Should I forgive them seven times over? And then, you know, clearly they're stuck in their sin and I, you there's no point in forgiving them. Maybe that's what he's thinking. And Jesus then tells this parable. So yeah, I think we are meant to see that we're not forgiving. And if we're talking about kingdom values,

(23:45.275)
questions of fairness and justice. Well, by the world's standards, the king was within his rights to insist the payment of the debt in first place to that servant. That is justice by the world's standards. And actually, when we look at the unforgiving servants, the reason why we're so outraged by how he treats the other person is because he's learned nothing from the grace that he's received. But say none of that had happened.

again, he would have been within his rights to ask for that debt to be repaid, even though it was a small amount and perhaps it wasn't the biggest priority. So the kingdom value being changed here is about what we expect in terms of justice and forgiveness. Forgiveness is radical and it's undeserved when it comes from God. I love the whole letter to the Ephesians that

This verse is really great, Ephesians 4.32. It says, be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving one another as God in Christ forgave you. So, if you're in the kingdom of heaven, you've received from Christ this amazing grace and forgiveness and restoration in your relationship with God, there is no debt there anymore. That should, if we're really in the kingdom, the fruit of that in our lives, how challenging it is, should be that we can forgive others.

forgiveness is, I find it a really complex area actually. And for some people I think, you know, it's really straightforward. And sometimes it really is, you know, if somebody's hurt me, I think, yes, I could probably forgive whatever it was, you know, as long as it didn't involve other people and so on and so forth. That's between me and them and so on.

more you think about forgiveness, the more you think, is forgiving this person, are you just enabling perhaps an abuser if you forgive without confronting the behavior that led to the offense? Is that a spiritually constructive thing to do? I don't know. And I think I'm probably getting away from the parable now, aren't I? Well, I don't know, though. I think it is useful for us to reflect on our challenges with forgiveness. I mean,

(26:12.239)
Way back when we were doing the Sermon on the Mount series in the podcast, I did share about a struggle that I have to forgive somebody who hurt me a lot in my life. I have been reflecting since then, many months over this, because I really, I do want to forgive. And sometimes we don't think that we have forgiven someone or we've not moved on from that because maybe there's still a cost to us and still a pain.

that we're experiencing. But you know, when our debts have been forgiven, that has cost something and that hasn't gone away. It's not like, the pain is gone, the cost is nothing. It's still there and yet we're forgiven. So I've actually been praying through it and come to this conclusion that I think I have forgiven that person and I know that God loves that person.

even though sometimes I still feel little pounds of pain from what I experienced from them. Well, I think that's really useful to be able to say that actually. I think it just does underline something about the cost of forgiveness, doesn't it? Which, you know, it might not be the main point of the parable, but a parable about forgiveness is always going to involve that sort of calculation really, isn't it?

I think we should move on to the third parable that we're going to look at, partly because it gives me a chance to tell the best Bible joke I know. We'll see about that. this is the rich man and Lazarus, and it's found in Luke chapter 16, verses 19 to 31. And I'll just summarize this and say what it's about. So, there is a rich man, and he's dressed in expensive purple, lives the high life.

and there's a beggar called Lazarus at his gate and life goes very badly for him and they both die. And Lazarus, we're told, goes to Abraham's bosom and the rich man goes to Hades, the place of the dead. The New International version translates that as hell. And he asks Abraham to tell Lazarus to bring him some water just on the end of his finger. And Abraham says, no, you have the good things in your earthly life. He didn't. And there is a gulf fixed between us.

(28:35.749)
So the rich man says, tell Lazarus to go and tell my brothers about what the situation is so that they won't end up here as well. And Abraham says, well, if they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, then they're not going to listen to him. And the rich man says, well, if somebody comes back from the dead, they'll listen. And Abraham says, well, if they don't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't be convinced even if someone rises from the dead. And that's

I think a clear sort of pointer to the fact that Jesus is going to rise from the dead and they're not going to listen to him either. I think, my goodness, there's so much going on in this parable, isn't there? I mean, one thing to say is this is not original to Jesus. This is a parable which was told throughout the Middle Eastern world and Jesus was kind of repurposing it really. I think the other thing that I'd want to say is that

I don't think it's a parable which is meant to teach us about heaven and hell and the geography of heaven and hell and things like that. Do you want to hear the joke? go on. Anybody hearing this parable the way that Jesus tells it would know that the rich man in the story is in all likelihood a Sadducee, okay? And they were the aristocratic party, they were very wealthy,

and they didn't believe in the resurrection. That's why they were Sadducees. I could see that coming. Nihililes. I'm not going to take credit for it or blame for it. I've heard that one before. yeah, there are all sorts of clues actually as to why it was the Sadducees. I he talks about Moses and the prophets and they

the Sadducees only thought that only Moses and the prophets were the authoritative scriptures, so, you know, not the Psalms and Ecclesiastes and all that sort of thing. Yeah, so, I mean, they didn't believe in any kind of afterlife. You know, they thought that once you were dead, you were dead, and it was up to you to live as well as you could in the meantime. So, it really is a, you know, Jesus is kind of, correcting the Sadducees really, and he's saying, there is a future life.

(30:58.607)
I think that makes so much sense though of that first half of the parable then where you've got the comparison between the rich man, know, wearing rich clothing, living at ease, stuffing his face, know, just because that, if you don't believe in an afterlife, then that is like a picture of the pinnacle of everything. And you would look at Lazarus lying there with sores on his body, waiting for dogs to

them to give him just a little bit of relief, you would either despise that or just think, how pitiful. I think that even kind of takes you back to maybe some of what I was saying earlier about when God isn't on the throne in our lives and our hope isn't in him. You know, we might chase after a life like the rich man. We certainly wouldn't like to identify with Lazarus. So then maybe this parable, it kind of questions that, says, look,

If you stopped there, both of these lives are actually empty in a way. One of them is very painful and sad, and the other one, yeah, there's loads of comfort in it, but it's meaningless if it doesn't lead to anything. And maybe it's a parable that's really about salvation, that mention of the chasm that is between, so after death, the chasm that is between the Lazarus and the rich man, and how Jesus himself, who

you know, there is this nod to the resurrection. He's the only one who will ever be able to bridge that chasm. I think it's really interesting that the story has so many layers. Like I think Jesus is making like a number of different points all in this one kind of really short story, partly about his own resurrection, partly about salvation. I think what was interesting about what you said, Esther, about, you know, the way that these people were in their earthly lives. So one was super rich.

stuffing his face, having a great time, and the other was poor and looked down upon. But correct me if I'm wrong, but I think at that time, the rich man would have been seen as being blessed by God and approved by God because he was rich. He must have done something right. And the poor man, he would have been seen as cursed by God. He must have done something wrong because of where he is.

(33:27.119)
And I think Jesus does something really interesting and just completely turns that on its head by saying, actually, where you are in this life, rich or poor, whether people like you or not, doesn't actually matter. It's where you stand before God that matters in the end. And so I think that's, for the hearers at that time, that must have been a really kind of interesting point that he was making as well of like, gosh, it's Lazarus who ends up in the good place.

and the rich man who turns out to not be so nice. And I think, again, the attitude that the rich man shows in the afterlife of, couldn't that guy Lazarus just like pop back down to earth where he was so miserable and just do something for me? You know, even that attitude shows that he is actually not a very nice person at all. He doesn't have the generosity, the grace, the humility that is expected of someone.

who wants to be a part of God's kingdom. That's really interesting. I found it interesting that in the parable, it's not said explicitly that the rich man ends up where he does because he hasn't helped Lazarus. But I think the implication is there is because Lazarus is at his gate, he even knows his name, but he hasn't done anything to help him at all.

And I think that's surely part of it, isn't it? you know, it must be a warning to people who have stuff, that they have a responsibility to use it well. You know, they have a responsibility to, you know, to be kind to each other. That's the quote from Ephesians, isn't it, as to you gave us earlier. And just not to leave people poor or leave people in need if you can do something about it. And, you know, we have a responsibility if we have

we have more than enough. comes back again to, you know, what does it mean to have God on the throne in our lives? Those two greatest commandments, love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind, strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. Lazarus was definitely this rich man's neighbor, and it would glorified God to see this rich man loving Lazarus. It goes all the way back to the Magnificat, doesn't it?

(35:50.765)
You know, he's filled the hungry with good things and the rich he has sent empty away. And it's this, this huge, it's this reversal, the great reversal, isn't it, really? So I think we've had a really good conversation about these parables. And certainly I've just found my mind expanding as I've been listening to everything that everybody's been saying. So that's absolutely great. And I just wonder if we should try and pin down a little bit or maybe think of

Just a couple of examples of what we've learned from this about Kingdom values and how it might apply today.

Yeah, I think for me from all of these three parables, the theme of generosity just really stands out. And that is a key kingdom value that Jesus is trying to teach, just the generosity and the grace that God has shown us, but that in turn we are to show other people, whether that is in giving more than people might deserve or not being jealous of others.

you know, rejoicing with them when they receive something. But also, you know, when we see people in need, do we help them? You know, do we take the grace that we have been given and do we share that with others? I think that's what I've really taken away from all of these stories. Brilliant. Esther? I think really living by God's kingdom values in the now and the not yet of the kingdom, I think it just brings home

what an impact that can have, what a light that is in the world, also how difficult it is. Because we're surrounded by influences, we're sort of just swimming in the cultural river that we're in. And it is hard work to resist that sometimes, to not just become sort of blinded to how those values differ from God's values, and then to sort of course correct.

(37:56.714)
So I think the big takeaway for me is just not to drift along. You I spend a lot of time listening to all the voices of the world, and I know that it does shape my values. And I do feel challenged that I need to be spending more time just checking that against God and his values. Great. Thank you. And I think for me, I think one of the things that comes through is just people first, really.

And status doesn't mean anything. Money doesn't mean anything. know, power, influence, that doesn't mean anything. It's just people, really. And the last shall be first and the first shall be last. Well, thank you very much for sharing this time with us and do rate and review us on your podcast platform. And you might want to take a look at Rooted. And if you want to do that, you can.

go to biblesociety.org.uk and just search for Rooted. you might want to subscribe to the journal and support Bible ministry around the world. Thanks for joining us and we'll be back next time.