The Rooted Podcast

Speaker 3 (00:00.118)
a vine with no fruit. What even is the purpose of that?

A lot of this language in these chapters is Jesus talking about abiding or remaining within him. What does that mean to remain or abide in Christ? Then how do we do that?

It is rare that a major familiar New Testament text has to be rethought because it is discovered that keywords have been mistranslated.

Without that grape, a vine has no worth really. And the grape itself, the fruit, provides nothing to the plant. It is for the benefit and enjoyment of others.

Words which we translate as vine and grange don't actually mean what we have always assumed that they mean.

Speaker 3 (00:41.42)
So understanding that Jesus is the Word and remaining in His Word, that for me gives me a practical way to start thinking about that.

You're listening to The Rooted Podcast from Bible Society. In each series, we take a closer look at a theme or book of the Bible and explore its relevance in our lives today. This is our series on Jesus' I Am statements. Hi everyone, welcome back to The Rooted Podcast. This is the last episode on the I Am statements. We do have a bonus episode next week.

But we're looking at Jesus' last I Am statement today, which is found in John 15, 5, where Jesus says, am the vine, you are the branches. So I'm Noelle and I'm here today with Mark and Chantelle Baker is our guest. We're so happy that she's here. Chantelle wrote for the John edition of Rooted and she works in Bible Society's Domestic Mission Team in community engagement. And she's doing really brilliant work in prisons across the UK and working with marginalized audiences, which is amazing. So thank you, Chantelle, so much for being here.

Longtime listener, so it's a joy. Thanks, Nimaal.

Yeah, let's get into this. I'll just start by reading the full verse. This is John 15, 5. Jesus says,

Speaker 1 (01:58.42)
So this is the last I Am statement that we find in John, and it's in John 15, which is the farewell discourse, or Jesus' last teachings to his disciples before we get to the passion narrative at the end of John. So, for some people, these are like their very favorite chapters in John because it's just Jesus talking and talking about the Holy Spirit and his relationship with the Father, and there's some really good stuff in here. Mark, as he's been studying, has found a really interesting translation of this verse that we thought we would just look at before we sort of get into it.

Yeah, and well, I hope this doesn't destroy too many illusions really or anything like that. So I was reading a commentary by David Ford, who is the sort of ultimate scholar of John's gospel. I think I'll just read you what he says. He says, it is rare that a major familiar New Testament text has to be rethought because it is discovered that keywords have been mistranslated. But that is what has happened with the Greek words ampelos, vine and claimer.

branch. Basically, he says that the words which we translate as vine and branch, so I am the vine, you are the branches, don't actually mean what we have always assumed that they mean. He says that over time, they shifted. So by the time John was writing his gospel, they certainly mean something rather different. And the word ampolos is not vine, it's vineyard, and the claimer is not

the branch of the vine, it's the vine itself. So he says we should really translate these very familiar words not as I am the vine and you are the branches. He says we should translate it as I am the vineyard and you are the vines. And the other line where that applies is where Jesus says I am the true vine. What he actually said was I am the true vineyard and my father is

the vine grower. So I thought that was absolutely fascinating. In a sense, it doesn't make too much difference, but I think what it does do is put the emphasis back on the individuals. We as individuals are not just the branches, we are the whole vine. The community aspect is found in the vineyard. So we grow together in the vineyard who is Jesus in this metaphor.

Speaker 2 (04:18.27)
And if you think about him saying, I am the vine and you are the branches, well, maybe that overemphasizes the sort of collective aspect of it, whereas actually we're individuals within the vineyard who is Jesus.

I don't know why I love this, but I love finding out that a verse that I've read my whole life one way could actually have a different translation and mean something different. It doesn't bother me. It more makes me feel like there's a different side of it I haven't been seeing. And I really like that. I also think it really works because so much of these chapters is Jesus talking about this sort of mutual indwelling that we have with God. So we are in Christ and Christ is in us and Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Jesus.

So makes sense to me that we are vines inside of a vineyard rather than branches that are sort of connected to a vine. Is there anywhere else in Scripture that we see the metaphor of vines specifically being used? There's lots of sort of horticultural, agricultural metaphors all throughout the Gospels and elsewhere in Scripture. So maybe we could just think a bit about that as we start. Where else do we see this come up in Scripture?

I know that we're spoken of as Gentiles being grafted into the vine. again, it speaks to this idea of finding a new life within the idea of Israel, of course, within the idea of the new covenant. And again, I particularly love the idea of being grafted in the idea that we retain our distinctiveness, our individuality.

but we find new life, new sustenance. We reach potential that otherwise, whether we're a branch or an individual vine, we would fail to otherwise achieve on our own or without that life-giving force. And yet that

Speaker 3 (06:04.716)
that cultivation that happens afterwards and the care that's taken with pruning and everything else that goes into it means that what we produce is still distinctive enough that it can be identified by other people, know, and enjoyed by other people, not least of all.

ourselves. We're created. We're created in the image for pleasure, for joy, and to enjoy all of these things. And so I see that in this analogy as well, that we get to retain that distinctiveness of who we are. It's celebrated and it reaches its full potential as well.

Yeah, brilliant. And I was thinking about, I mean, you asked about vine imagery in the scriptures and there's loads in the Old Testament. Isaiah 5-7, the vineyard of the Lord of Hosts is the house of Israel. Jeremiah 2-21, yes, I planted you as a choice vine, speaking to Israel. Isaiah 10-1, Israel is...

is a luxuriant vine. Now, the interesting thing is that wherever, and I mean whenever, the image of the vine is used in relation to Israel in the Old Testament, it's always used in a negative sense. You know, the vine has run wild. Jeremiah, the nation has degenerated, become a wild vine. And even in the synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, the vineyard or the people, they represent Israel. And again, it's always got a negative connotation. So along comes Jesus, who is

the true vine or the true vineyard who has succeeded where Adam failed, who has succeeded where Israel failed. And that's why he's able to say, am the true vineyard or I am the true vine.

Speaker 3 (07:42.84)
Thinking again, just about, and there are so many, so just to cherry pick a few, this idea of being planted fruitfulness, finding its place as a result of being tapped into the source of that fruitfulness. Someone says, that person is like a tree planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in season and whose leaf does not wither, whatever they do prospers. Again, that source is

the true resource that enables us to become the thing that we're supposed to become. And of course, speaking about the freefulness as well, Jesus says, know, this is how they will know that you are my disciples because you love one another.

that community, whether we're the branches of the vineyard together as vines, the evidence is the love, the love for each other, the love for those in our community. Whether we express that love with these productive acts that are quite visible to other people, whether we express it because we remain deeply prayerful for the things that we are seeing happening around us and affecting those, whether we are praying for a change of heart to love more and in more practical ways, or fruitfulness in that area of being identified.

identified by our fruit of love.

Maybe it's just worth underlining how familiar the vine as a symbol would have been to the people that Jesus was talking to. I mean, in the regime of the Maccabees between the Old and New Testaments, they took the vine as the symbol of Israel and there are Maccabean coins with

Speaker 2 (09:13.294)
the vine symbol stamped into them. Herod's great temple, which Jesus knew so well, had an enormous golden vine on the front, solid gold, and a vine with clusters of golden grapes. And people used to be able to buy a grape or a leaf or a cluster of grapes and donate it, and the priests would attach it to this golden vine. And sometimes, if they bought a leaf, they'd be able to write their names on the back of it. This leaf was donated by, you know,

whoever it was. And that was something that everybody in Jerusalem would have been really, really familiar with. So along comes Jesus, and Jesus says, I am the true vineyard. I am the true vine. And that would really have resonated because it's almost as though it was an implicit criticism of the vine on the temple and what people associated with that.

A lot of this language in these chapters is Jesus talking about abiding or remaining within Him. And as I've just said, there does seem to be this point He's getting at that this is really important, that we are in Him and He's in us. But what does that mean to remain or abide in Christ? And then, how do we do that?

about that word abide or dwell and I know that there is a nuance between them in terms of what they actually mean. But the idea is very much staying somewhere, not in a static way, but you've made your place of residence now. You find yourself fixed in that place. The idea of remaining

in Christ. If I think about the fact that John speaks of Jesus as the logos, as the Word, then for me, it's easier to understand that as remaining in the Word. Because it's a lovely metaphor or analogy, isn't it? But what practically does that mean? How do you remain?

Speaker 3 (11:01.48)
in Jesus. So, understanding that Jesus is the Word and remaining in His Word, that for me gives me a practical way to start thinking about that. How do I remain in His Word? I mean, we're doing it today, aren't we? Really wrestling it out, that idea of trying to

understand, and you said Noel, the way you can read something over and again and your circumstances and fresh information brings, it's not a new truth, the truth is the truth, but a fresh understanding to that. And I think the longer you dwell in it, the more familiar that becomes and the more intuitive it is to the outworking, which is hopefully the fruit, right?

I've been puzzling over this and it seems to me that there is something here about who you are and what you do. And to talk about remaining in Christ and to be in Christ and all the language about that, which is very Apostle Paul language as well as Jesus here in John, that's kind of a…

I think that's a deeply theological statement and there's a lot of, you could call it sort of mystical thinking there. It's really difficult to get your head around that and to unpack that. I don't even think I'm going to try to be honest. But alongside that, there goes what we actually do. Chantal, I think that's what you were talking about. You're talking about being in the word and how we use the word and how we engage with the word and relate to the word as we read it and try to understand it.

and all of that sort of thing. And to me, I find that easier to grasp, I think, than the sort of deeply philosophical and theological nuances really. And to me, I wonder if it has something to do with friendship. If you are somebody's friend, then you spend time with that person, you get to know that

Speaker 2 (12:50.968)
person, you sort of feed off that person and they feed off you and they shape you, think, especially friends that you make early in life and that you keep for a long time as well. And you sort of grow together, you grow alongside each other. And hopefully if you choose the right friends, insofar as we choose our friends, but you know, if you choose the right friends, then you both make each other better people and you kind of respect each other and you don't want to let each other down. And the whole friendship thing becomes a

an exercise in building character. And I wonder if there's something of that nature going on here. And it's interesting, just a few verses after Jesus says, am the vine or I am the vineyard, he goes on to talk about friendship. I command as this love for each other as I've loved you. Greater love has no one than this that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command. And so there's that sense of being with somebody in that friendship relationship.

I was thinking those exact thoughts and it works as you say, whether you're thinking of the vineyard or the vine itself, because there is something that is incredibly close about both of those things. When you plant an orchard, the trees are quite far apart, aren't they? Whether we're thinking of it as a vineyard with the clusters of vines, they're always planted really close together, aren't they? Or if we're thinking of it as the branch on the vine, again, it doesn't get any closer than that.

talking about this fruitfulness all the time, to be rooted in the Word, to be grafted into the vine, the Word itself, I don't see very much of scripture where we aren't being commanded, pointed, encouraged towards action of some kind. And that action, the outwoken of the Kingdom on earth, always seems to be about community and reaching those who are most marginalized. You would expect me to say that, but reaching those.

who are most marginalized reaching those with love as you've spoken about Mark. And yet we maintain our distinct character and nature as well. That's celebrated, isn't it? The fact that we're grafted in again, you know, the vine isn't something that is self-propagating. So it is something that the vine dresser, the horticulturalist who takes care of the vine, that's the way that they are going to multiply.

Speaker 3 (15:06.466)
The way that that's done expertly determines the kind of fruit that's going to result from the vine. There's something in that too, I think, about the soil and everything determines the fruit eventually, the environment, the grape that results. We may not be, I don't consider myself somebody who is very good at recognizing plants and identifying them, but when you have a tree with no fruit, it's much, much harder, isn't it?

But the minute you see fruit, even the worst of us, when it comes to this goes, bet you that's some sort of an apple tree, because the fruit helps you to identify what kind of plant it is. And with a vine, it's so obvious, isn't it? It's almost the only purpose is the grape. know, trees can give shade without providing fruit. They can do so many other things that are useful, but a vine with no fruit, what even is the purpose of that? And so I think it's very intentional.

I mean, apart from the fact that there were obviously loads of vines around at the time. But very intentional that Jesus chooses this particular plant to use in this analogy. Because without that grape, a vine has no worth, really. It's not even that beautiful to look at. And the grape itself, the fruit, provides nothing to the plant. It is for the benefit and enjoyment of others, which links up with what you're saying, Mark. That love and community, yeah.

and obviously a sacrament of the Eucharist and all sorts of other lovely things that if you want to be poetic and go there.

Yes, all sorts of other things. And I think we could go there actually. Before this in John 6, I think it is, he's been talking about eating his body, drinking his blood. don't think you can see, I don't think you can read these words about the vine without thinking about actually. It's a Eucharistic image, I'm fairly sure I would say. But just picking up on what you were saying, Chantelle, about the fruit. And this is going back to us being vines rather than

Speaker 2 (17:04.407)
branches. And it might be total nonsense in which case just tell me, but it just made me think about how true wine experts can tell so much about a wine just because it just

because of the taste. And what gives wines different tastes is just the places where they're planted. You know, the composition of the soil, the amount of sunlight they get, the amount of rain they get, you know, whether they're on a south-facing hillside or something like that. So all over these different wine-growing areas, the wine will taste different because of the conditions in which the vines are planted. And it just made me think how different

the churches, know, different churches are and different Christians within churches are. And we're all going to grow up as different people, but still vines planted in the true vineyard because the circumstances of our lives are so different. And, you know, we shouldn't be judgy about people, you know, should we? Because people are just going to be different and that's that. It doesn't mean they're not faithful disciples.

Different cultivates, right?

I also really liked what you saying, Chantal, about the fact that abiding is active. Because it can seem like you're dwelling in Jesus, would just be a sort of, I don't know, chill environment where you don't do anything. But actually, you're producing fruit because you're abiding in Jesus. And producing fruit has to look like something. And I think when Jesus talks about producing fruit, He's talking about you begin to do the things that are bringing heaven to earth and uniting the two.

Speaker 1 (18:35.886)
And I wonder if that's just, not that there isn't any effort involved, but that is sort of a natural outworking of abiding in Jesus. It's the natural consequence of what happens when you're in Christ and He's in you. And I also think of what you were saying, Chantelle, about the Word and His words being in us. I think that is the natural, naturally what happens. I was just thinking later in the passage in verse 7, I think, He says, you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish and it will be done for you.

So I do think that was really good what you were saying, Shantel, about Jesus being the Word and how big a deal that is. And yeah, so thinking about fruit as well, as we've talked about that, one question that we asked in sort of when we were preparing for this, is it enough to abide in Christ without fruit? Is that possible? I would think that it isn't, but I don't know. What do you guys think?

We get nervous, don't we, that we're somehow going to be undermining the work of grace when we start talking about fruit and works and effort. But we know very clearly that faith without works is dead and that we can't get to God through works alone. It's intrinsic. And again, the vine is beautiful, or even the vineyard is a beautiful analogy for this because you only judge the successfulness of the plant, the health.

of the plant, the viability of the plant, according to whether or not there's fruit. If there's no fruit, that graft didn't work, the plant is not well, there is an issue, possibly it has died. But we're reluctant for all sorts of very good reasons, I think sometimes, to focus on that because it can just become this habitual dead works only faith if we're not careful. And the fact that the two are so inextricably linked,

I think will always do grace the justice that it deserves. But without the fruit, mean, yeah, those branches get cut off and it seems harsh and we know that fire is always a symbol of judgment, right? God's judgment. Is that deserved? Is it deserved? If you're not fruit bearing, what does that mean? Does it mean that there is an issue in your understanding of faith? Is there an issue in the abiding? You know, are we to be expect?

Speaker 3 (20:46.464)
that fruit to be there. And what does the fruit even look like? Does the fruit come as a result of being in Christ or do we bear fruit through being in Christ? Does that make sense?

It makes sense as a question. don't think I have an answer, but it's the right sort of question, I think. But I think the question of what fruit looks like is a really interesting one as well. One of the commentaries that I looked at said that the fruit that Jesus is talking about is, quotes, all the manifestations of genuine faith, which could be all sorts of different things. I I think that's the story of Mary and Martha, where Mary is sitting at Jesus' feet and Martha is

buzzing about in the kitchen and gets very ratty with Mary because she's not helping her. But actually, these are both expressions of genuine faith. Martha is expressing her genuine faith by being hospitable and by buzzing about as she does, and Mary is expressing her faith by sitting at the feet of Jesus. Martha's fault is in not recognizing what Mary is doing, I think, and just letting her do that. And so for some people,

fruit looks really activist. They do stuff, they achieve things, they're busy all the time. For other people, fruit is sitting at the feet of Jesus. I don't think we should be quick to judge if somebody else's fruit is not the sort of fruit that we might think is right.

On that note, am I taking the analogy too far here when I explore the idea that fruit bearing is seasonal, right? There is a season for fruit bearing. Very few plants that I can think of off the top of my head are producing fruit all year round. The understanding is that there is a season where it looks as though the plant's not doing anything and then there'll be buds or small fruit and then eventually it will mature and ripen and be ready for harvest.

Speaker 3 (22:42.166)
And so, you know, it kind of links with what you're saying, Mark, that there are seasons within this cultivation of fruit within ourselves as well, where we are and perhaps we're also being pruned, which is just a part of this piece of scripture as well. It does speak about the pruning. The pruning is necessary. And when a plant is being pruned, it's not necessarily producing fruit at that time. So it's a seasonal thing. And as you say, it's not something that from an outward point of view,

or should be quick to judge or to see.

Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I think that's a really good point to make. I think the other thing that I put into that is that I say we shouldn't be quick to judge and we shouldn't be quick to judge, but we shouldn't be afraid of judging either. know, sometimes, and I speak as an ex-pastor, but you sometimes people in churches, they're not

doing anything that I can see. They're turning up on Sundays. They might be going to the prayer meeting, but they're not sort of volunteering to, you know, change the world in some respect. They're just there. And I'm very happy, very comfortable with that sort of fruit bearing because I don't know what God is doing in their hearts. I don't know what their, you know, their home life is or anything like that. Maybe that's all they can do. But I can think back. I look back on some people who've been actively toxic.

who have behaved really badly in churches. That is not fruit bearing. Those are not fruitful vines. Those are blight bearing vines, if you like.

Speaker 3 (24:13.23)
should be aware that the fruit of the Spirit, that's not seasonal. That's all year round, isn't it? And that's something that we should be actively engaging in and that's the result of abiding, isn't it? It should be. The Holy Spirit's work in us to produce love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control, you know. That's not optional. Seasonal, if you like.

Yeah, I think that's really encouraging too, to people who maybe feel as if they're not doing enough. I think a lot of Christians can feel that way if they're not volunteering all of their time or maybe they're too busy, maybe they're in a season of life where they have kids or family life or even, yeah, there can just be things that take our time. That if our hearts are in the right place, it's not always an excuse not to do anything. We should be doing what we can. But that fruit can look different. I think that's an encouragement. So yeah, that's really good. Maybe the last thing

We've sort of touched on this, but we could talk a bit about who the fruit is for. And Chantelle, you said something really good about this, which was that grapes don't do anything for the grapevine. They're for the people that come and take them, which I think is really good. So yeah, the fruit that we...

produce is for the world, which I think is really outward-facing, which is really good. Because I think so much of Christianity, a lot of the time, can feel very individualistic. And I think that comes from the fact that we live in an individualistic society. So we think that way. I'm on my church's youth team. I meet with some young people. And I was meeting with a girl a couple of weeks ago. And she's really struggling with her faith. She's 16 years old. And we were talking about it. And she was basically talking to me along the lines of, like, how can this be better? How can Christianity

Christianity be better? She's really struggling with it. How can it actually help me and change my life? And I tried to explain to her that it does change our lives, but ultimately it's for the benefit of everyone else. I'm not saved just so that I can become a better person and have a better life, but so that the whole world can become better because of Jesus and what He's done. So I really like that focus on the fact that the fruit is for everyone else. It's not for me and my life. Although there are benefits as well, obviously.

Speaker 3 (26:14.72)
That's attractive to people, isn't it? Isn't that what we're seeing with the research that's come out most recently with the Quiet Revival? That there is an attractiveness in that. We're talking about the branch has been grafted in, that it has to be a very intentional act to propagate these vines, but that the fruit itself offers something and that's the authentic evidence of something. I think that that is incredibly attractive to people, particularly at the moment.

where people are looking for something that is genuine and that because so much of what we experience, whether it's social media or just messaging through whichever channels we choose to receive it, can be faked, can be disingenuous, can be the cream off the top, the highlights, and not necessarily something that is deeply true and genuine. so when people come across that is, yes, it is incredibly and deeply attractive, isn't it? Because this is what we're all

searching for in some way. And so, I mean, I think you've had quite a bit to do with this, haven't you, Mark?

I've had a lot to do with the quiet revival, yes. I mean, this is the report that we put out which said that there'd been a massive upsurge in church going over the last six years and, you know, more than two million more people attending church now than there were six years ago, which is absolutely amazing. It's all on the website if people want to look at it. But I'll tell you what occurred to me just in response to your question about what good is this for other people. And that is the...

the nature of the grape, really, and the nature of the vine, because what good is it? Well, it's good to make wine out of. I mean, I'm sure they would have dried some to make raisins. Is that how raisins are made? I think it is, isn't it? Yeah, not much of a horticulturalist, to be honest. But isn't it interesting that it's this image that Jesus chooses to express something about what He wants us to be?

Speaker 2 (28:13.622)
and what He is for us and with us. I know that there are people listening to the podcast who probably don't drink, might even think that drinking is wrong. But that just wasn't a thing back when Jesus was talking. I like, I love wine, I do. I really, really enjoy drinking wine and it adds something to my life. It makes me happy, the taste makes me happy and I love to drink wine.

And there's something about the joyfulness of that, I think, which we must not lose. And that goes back to wedding of Canaan in Galilee, you know, the super abundance of excellent wine which Jesus produces. And there's something there about the richness of this whole Christian thing. I don't know if you're able to get some of that across to your young person, Noel, but I think that's the place where I'd come from.

Yeah, no, that's really good. Yeah, I love the connection with Wedding Akeen also because it's the master of the ceremonies, I think, says, you've saved the best wine for last. There's an emphasis on that, which I love.

It's pure joy, isn't it? It's pure joy and pleasure and as his very first sort of sign or miracle to pick that one, I think it says something.

Yeah, really good. Great. So as we come to close, why don't we just do what we've been doing for every episode this series and talk a bit about what this statement means to us personally.

Speaker 3 (29:38.892)
Like for me, the encouragement to abide and to dwell for somebody who doesn't find abiding and dwelling naturally an easy thing to do. I see that encouragement to remain in the Word as something that is deeply enriching and nourishing.

if I find the discipline for it and that makes it sound like something that I have to do, which is a chore, but I don't mean it in that way. I mean, the more I do it, the more I want to do it. Conversations like this just renew that appetite for it. And as we've said already in this episode, you spend time with a familiar text and the layers are revealed and there's so much more and there's always so much more, no matter how many years you've been on the faith journey, as it were, no matter how many times you've read a particular passage.

there is something else to be revealed. And even if it isn't, even if it is just a golden oldie that is familiar and comforting, to actually spend that time wrestling, dwelling, meditating, whatever that might look like, and speaking the logos, the word, speaking it with other people, whether it's in prayer or conversation or, you know, mulling on it in my thoughts. I think that's one of the things I really am encouraged to do more.

Great. Yeah. And I think for me, and this has come out in our conversation today actually, is just that sense of joy really. Vines are about grapes and grapes are about joy, whether they are wine or raisins, fond of both, but particularly fond of wine. And I think that's what I'm going to take away. What about you, Noel?

It's making me laugh for some reason. That's great, Mark. Yeah, I think for me, today the thing that stuck with me is the thing Chantal said about the grapes being for everyone else. I really like that. And I really like the end of this verse as well, which is looking where Jesus says, apart from me, you can do nothing. That's a really good reminder that anything that we do apart from Him, it's not the way it's supposed to be. Everything we do is supposed to come from abiding in Him. So yeah, love that.

Speaker 1 (31:40.354)
Thank you both so much for a great conversation. Thank you, Chantelle, again for being here. We're so grateful for you. And that's it. So this is the last I Am statement. So that's it for this part of the series. We have a bonus episode next week where we're going to look at the passage in John 8 of the woman caught in adultery. So that will be there for you next week. And that's it for this episode. If you love the podcast,

Please feel free to leave us a review or rating and if you have any questions you can send them in to biblesociety.org.uk forward slash rooted questions and thanks so much for listening and we'll see you next week. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Rooted. To find out more about Bible Society's mission to invite people to discover the Bible for themselves.

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Speaker 2 (32:23.786)
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